About that old electromagnetic "stellar drive"

Wayne, I appreciate your understanding. And I also understand that you cant get something out of nothing but may I ask if you read what I explained he

.... lets assume we have 2 identical 3mm inductors.. spaced 3mm apart. we start with the moment the inductor-1 is "off".
---Inductor-1 is quickly turned off but the "emitted" electromagnetic wave still travels and is attenuated the further it goes...
---Inductor-2 is starting to energize the instant inductor-1 was 100%off.
---Inductor-2 takes 10ps to turn 100% on.
----10ps later, i.e. since inductor-1 was off, inductor-2 is fully on and, this emitted wave is now 3mm away and reaches inductor-2
inductor-2 reacts against the uncoupled wave.

all described above is 1 cycle, frequency could be very moderate in khz range.. the important part here is the perfection of the cycle.

As Im learning now I have 1 main and chief vital question:
How strong will this force felt by inductor-2? if we just imagine that inductor-1 has a magnetic pull strength of 1kg at 3mm distance, will inductor-2 experience the same or at least close to 1kg? if not.. why?




What is the exact specific reason it wouldnt work(I know about Con. of momentum ). I mean, there is a true undeniable moment instant where the magnetic field from magnet 1 is separated from the magnet 1 itself. That leaves us wondering how magnet2 is going to DO WITH THIS ORPHAN uncoupled MAGNETIC FIELD!??

This is really the part/moment/instant of operation I would really love to understand more ..

Would magnet 2 feel a pull equal to the magnetic field strength pull?

: tyet tyt
: Wayne, I appreciate your understanding. And I also understand that
: you ca= nt get something out of nothing but may I ask if you read what
: I explained = he [omitted]

I think I understand it, at least enough. You're tinkering with the
timing of the EM fields rises and falls, so as to get one object to
create a field to affect another object, and then have the first field
absent when the field of that object gets back to the original object.

However clever it looks, it doesn't conserve momentum. So that's pretty
much a show-stopper right there. Now there are some fairly exotic cases
where relativistic effects can allow "swimming in space", which arguably
has problems with momentum conservation, but this experiment is smack dab
in the middle of the range of applicability of newtonian and maxwellian
dynamics, and those are known to conserve momentum. So either figure
out where the momentum is coming from, or nobody'll take it seriously,
no matter how cleverly you arrange the fields to rise or fall.

Save your fears, take your place
Save them for the judgment day
Fast and free, tollow me
Time to make the sacrifice
We rise or fall

I'm a soldier, born to stand
In this waking hell I am
Witnessing more than I can compute
Pray myself we don't forget
Lies, betrayed and the oppressed
Please give me the strength to be the truth

--- "Rise", performed by Origa

hmm
Im really starting to get more and more confused/brain-burned the more I research and dig deeper into all of this because Im dealing with the speed of electricity itself through the wire and wther or not the rise/fall time is dependent on this or not... etc

On 21/09/2012 10:39 PM, tyet tyt wrote:
Thanx Sylvia, thats very good, this is what I want to discuss., obviously the Em waves travels at C speed, so we can never have any higher speed than this anywhere including how fast we want to energise the coils. but still how come there all kinds of different rise times generators from very long to very short when they all obey the C speed?

anyway lets assume we have 2 identical 3mm inductors.. spaced 3mm apart. we start with the moment the inductor-1 is "off".

---Inductor-1 is quickly turned off but the "emitted" electromagnetic wave still travels and is attenuated the further it goes...

---Inductor-2 is starting to energize the instant inductor-1 was 100%off.
---Inductor-2 takes 10ps to turn 100% on.

----10ps later, i.e. since inductor-1 was off, inductor-2 is fully on and, this emitted wave is now 3mm away and reaches inductor-2

inductor-2 reacts against the uncoupled wave.

all described above is 1 cycle, frequency could be very moderate in khz range.. the important part here is the perfection of the cycle.

As Im learning now Ihave 2 main and chief vital question:

1-how strong will this force felt by inductor-2? if we just imagine that inductor-1 has a magnetic pull strength of 1kg at 3mm distance, will inductor-2 experience the same or at least close to 1kg? if not.. why?

Well, not 1kgf, no, because by hypothesis the first field is dropping
while the second field is rising. But some force.

The net effect is presumably that of a slightly anisotropic radiator.

The construction and collapsing of magnetic fields implies exchanges of
energy. The question is what will happen to it in the process.
Collapsing a field at that rate creates a huge EMF. Even if the
electromagnet wire is superconducting, you'd still have to store the
energy somewhere at that huge voltage. You'd also have to make the
electromagnet wire sufficiently well insulated to cope.

My strong suspicion is that it simply cannot be built.

2-can we have a short 10ps rise time in a much longer inductor.. like 100cm?

It doesn't mean anything. 100cm is much longer than the distance light
travels in that time.

Sylvia.

my 1kg example is just an exaggerated example, actual force will be a lot less. also the first field is finished dropping just right BEFORE the second field is rising.
Maybe the real question is what will the magnet2 do when it encounters the uncoupled field-1. The electromagnetic-field -1 has almost no mass but has the same magnetic field pole as magnet2.

So, will magnet2 get repelled? obviously both magnet2 and field1 are going to get repelled from each other.. which leaves me wondering what happens next:

-magnet2 & field1 get repelled for equal distances?

Or
-magnet2 is almost stationary(actually repelled a very tiny amount)while filed1 is repelled for great distance because field1´ mass is so small?


Am I getting closer to understanding this? which scenario is closer to reality?

Thanx

On 22/09/2012 10:33 PM, tyet tyt wrote:

my 1kg example is just an exaggerated example, actual force will be a lot less. also the first field is finished dropping just right BEFORE the second field is rising.
Maybe the real question is what will the magnet2 do when it encounters the uncoupled field-1. The electromagnetic-field -1 has almost no mass but has the same magnetic field pole as magnet2.

So, will magnet2 get repelled? obviously both magnet2 and field1 are going to get repelled from each other.. which leaves me wondering what happens next:

-magnet2 & field1 get repelled for equal distances?



Or
-magnet2 is almost stationary(actually repelled a very tiny amount)while filed1 is repelled for great distance because field1´ mass is so small?


Am I getting closer to understanding this? which scenario is closer to reality?

Thanx


Get back to basics.

1. A current in a wire creates a field around the wire.

2. If a field intersects a current in a wire, then the wire experiences
a force. This is an entirely local phenomenon - the only things that
count in determining the force at a point in the wire at a particual
instance are the current through the wire at that point at that instant,
and the field intersecting the wire at that point at that instant.

3. Changes in a field propagate through space at the speed of light.

4. Fields do NOT experience forces.

Consequently, suppose you have two wires A and B, separated by some
distance X, with the speed of light being c. The time required for
changes to propagate between the two wires is t = X/c. The wires are
mounted on a rigid frame, and the wires and frame combined are free to
move in space.

Apply a current in wire A. After time t you apply a current in wire B.
After a further time t you remove the current from wire A, and another
period of t, you remove the current from wire B.

The field from wire A reaches wire B just as the current starts to flow,
so wire B experiences a force. Since the current flows through wire A
for a period of 2t, wire B will experience the force for that period.

The field from wire B reaches wire A just as the current in wire A is
removed. Wire A therefore experiences no force, and since no current
flows at any time while the field from wire B impinges on wire A, wire A
never experiences a force.

During this cycle there is therefore a net force on the combined system
of wires and frame, which cause a change in their momentum.

So have we created the long sought-after reactionless drive?

Sadly, no.

If we consider what happens along the axis of the frame joining the
wires, and look at the magnetic fields, we see that the field from A
reaches B just as B creates its field. The two fields add together (the
field from A has diminished in strength somewhat), resulting in a
magnetic pulse of length 2t that propagates through space.

In the opposite direction the field from B reaches A just as the field
from A vanishes, resulting in a pulse of length 4t propagating through
space. It's amplitude drops somewhat half way through because the field
of B is dropped somewhat by the time it reaches A.

However, the energy of a pulse is proportional to the SQUARE of its
amplitude, so there is more energy in the shorter higher amplitude
pulse. The momentum of an electromagnetic pulse is proportional to its
energy, so more momentum is carried off in one direction than the other.

As I indicated earlier, we have an anisotropic radiator. It's just a
photon drive, and a very poor one at that.

Sylvia.

yeah, I think I understand why it wont work efficiently at all, I went through some thinking the last days and imagined that the uncoupled electromagnetic field has extremely small mass(momentum) so when it is expelled, the thrust produced is equal to that "EMF mass" which is really really small.. so therefore it will never work(or yes like a photon drive only) is my thinking right here