A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Space Science » Space Science Misc
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

NASA's 1$ billion windfall



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old January 15th 04, 02:29 AM
Bill Clark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA's 1$ billion windfall

I may be kind of skeptical, but I think it will take the extra $1
billion President Bush has pledged for NASA just to keep it going at
current levels. Here's why:

Everything is classified now. Even technical journal articles have to
be vetted before they are published. Especially anything having to do
with orbital mechanics, or any other aspect of "rocket science" that
applies to missiles or that is somehow related to SDI so that it's
classified.

The problem with high security operations is that progress is
inversely proportional to security level. The higher the security,
the less the competition, and the less incentive scientists have to
produce high quality work. Anybody who does a very good job is
harassed by his or her peers for making them look bad so, if anything,
there is negative incentive. Moreover, the whole system is ratcheted
so that high performing scientists will be booted out of the system
leaving only the low horsepower people left.

Consequently, with all the new security operations in place since 9/11
the $1 billion Bush thinks will get us to the moon and Mars will only
pay for more security, lazier scientists, and an underperforming space
program.

Bill Clark
http://home.austin.rr.com/whcii/

  #3  
Old January 15th 04, 02:47 PM
Martha H Adams
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA's 1$ billion windfall

I have to agree with Bill Clark's comments, and add further
observations.

First, that the "security" thing is not peculiar to NASA but seems to
be a basic policy from the people in Washington. It ranges from
net-dragging (mild pun here) the public domain to top policy that
financially and politically powerful groups are claiming possession of
anything they can define. Over the long run, our whole culture is
impoverished. I can't feel troubled over such policy with respect to
what is called "popular music" but the space program carries the germ
of our future and possibly even of our very existence in to the
future. So I think the "security" thing is bad trouble.

Secondly, there is that oh-so-photogenic Shawn O'Keefe. I've seen
very many genuinely working people in industry and universities.
These ranged from engineering draftsmen to predoctoral grad students
to professors to Nobel prize winners. And to my recall, none of them
in their productive years, gave attention to how they looked in front
of a camera. My first impression of O'Keefe and ever since, is does
he ever think about anything else? I cannot see that man as a working
administrator. He only reminds me of whats-his-name who headed up the
Postal Service a few years back.

As I try to guess what the future will see looking back at us, I think
the central question will be: Why all that buzzing around about "man"
and "exploration," when we needed to be putting *settlements* Out
There?

Cheers, sort of -- Martha Adams

  #4  
Old January 15th 04, 03:53 PM
Jon Berndt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA's 1$ billion windfall

"Steve" wrote in message

I also share your skepticism. I see this initiative as money for
Boeing and LockMart to give to their shareholders while they make
noises about producing hardware and then deliver nothing. Remember
the X-33.


You must be joking. The profit margin on this kind of work is typically
very, very low.

As far as delivering nothing, you should probably look into that [false]
statement a little bit before throwing it out.

Jon

  #5  
Old January 16th 04, 01:49 PM
Earl Colby Pottinger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA's 1$ billion windfall

"Jon Berndt" :

"Steve" wrote in message

I also share your skepticism. I see this initiative as money for
Boeing and LockMart to give to their shareholders while they make
noises about producing hardware and then deliver nothing. Remember
the X-33.


You must be joking. The profit margin on this kind of work is typically
very, very low.

As far as delivering nothing, you should probably look into that [false]
statement a little bit before throwing it out.


Really, then name one useful thing learnt from the non-building of the X-33.

And it is non-building when you consider that there is not even an assembled
airframe.

Earl Colby Pottinger

--
I make public email sent to me! Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos,
SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to
the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

  #6  
Old January 17th 04, 01:41 AM
Scott Lowther
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA's 1$ billion windfall

Earl Colby Pottinger wrote:

Really, then name one useful thing learnt from the non-building of the X-33.


Multi-lobe composite pressure vessels are hard to make. Very hard to
make.

Cryopumping in composite structures is a serious problem.


There. That's two things.

--
Scott Lowther, Engineer
Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam
gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address

  #7  
Old January 17th 04, 05:23 AM
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA's 1$ billion windfall

"Scott Lowther" wrote in message
...
Earl Colby Pottinger wrote:

Really, then name one useful thing learnt from the non-building of the

X-33.

Multi-lobe composite pressure vessels are hard to make. Very hard to
make.


And we didn't know that before?


Cryopumping in composite structures is a serious problem.


Nor that?



There. That's two things.


Seems to me several people knew this was a problem before we started on
X-33. So I think you'd be hardpressed to say we learned anything.



--
Scott Lowther, Engineer
Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam
gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address


  #8  
Old January 19th 04, 05:38 AM
Earl Colby Pottinger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA's 1$ billion windfall

Scott Lowther :

Earl Colby Pottinger wrote:

Really, then name one useful thing learnt from the non-building of the

X-33.

Multi-lobe composite pressure vessels are hard to make. Very hard to
make.


Sorry that was already known before the X-33 was built. Infact if you read
the messages published just after the X-33 design was selected you would see
that lots of people already knew that it was a hard (bad) design and
suggested alumium tanks atleast to do test flights.

Cryopumping in composite structures is a serious problem.


Odd, it was not a problem in non-NASA designs.

ROTON did not have the problem.

The DC-X did not have the problem.

Infact, anyone in North America except for NASA would have built a test tank
that matched the final design (NASA changed the design between the final
version and thier test version) or would have talked to or hired Scaled
Composites to avoid problems like that.

The way X-33 was done was just a waste of money.

Earl Colby Pottinger
--
I make public email sent to me! Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos,
SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to
the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

  #9  
Old January 17th 04, 11:19 PM
Jon Berndt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA's 1$ billion windfall

"Earl Colby Pottinger" wrote in message

"Jon Berndt" :

"Steve" wrote in message

I also share your skepticism. I see this initiative as money for
Boeing and LockMart to give to their shareholders while they make
noises about producing hardware and then deliver nothing. Remember
the X-33.


You must be joking. The profit margin on this kind of work is typically
very, very low.

As far as delivering nothing, you should probably look into that [false]
statement a little bit before throwing it out.


Really, then name one useful thing learnt from the non-building of the

X-33.

As far what was learned in developing X-33 others have already pointed out
to you several things. Do a google search on "AIAA X-33" and you'll find a
bunch of papers written on various topics surrounding the project.

The main point I was making was that I'd be very surprised if the
shareholders for Lockheed saw anything at all from the X-33 project.

And it is non-building when you consider that there is not even an

assembled
airframe.

Earl Colby Pottinger


Look he http://aiaa.pr.erau.edu/past/Spring99/99_01.html (not the best
picture). Obviously it was not *finished*, but the frame was *assembled*.
The last I heard, though, it *was* being disassembled.

Jon

  #10  
Old January 20th 04, 12:19 AM
Rand Simberg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA's 1$ billion windfall

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:19:11 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
"Jon Berndt" made the phosphor on my monitor
glow in such a way as to indicate that:

The main point I was making was that I'd be very surprised if the
shareholders for Lockheed saw anything at all from the X-33 project.


They saw continued profits from Titan, Atlas and Shuttle.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NASA's Culture Of Denial Rand Simberg Space Science Misc 0 August 26th 03 10:05 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.