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NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a secondhome
On 3/9/2017 10:21 AM, Rodney Pont wrote:
On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 08:47:55 -0600, S Ergio wrote: but the L1 is not in the path of Sun to Mars, where particles go. It is at L1 way out of the way, 60 degrees off. diagram here; http://www.spaceacademy.net.au/libra...s/lagrangp.htm According to Wikipedia L1 is between Mars and the Sun; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rangian_points and I thought L1 was always the one between the two bodies. you are right, guess I was thinking L4 or L5, [I make mistake, first of the year, that I know of...] L1 would be effective mars is 92,900,000 miles from the sun and L1 was stated as 655,000 miles out, or 0.7% of the way. if you double the effective radius from L1, the magnetic field, the partical would be exposed to the mag field for about 7 seconds from the sun. I think the magnetic field drops off as d^(-3) nearby L1, but is d^(-2) after a ways out. the other problem is a magnetic field generator at L1, will alter paths of sun generated cosmic rays, charged particals, but will they be deflected away from Mars, or focus them on mars, or have little effect. think of orentation of the field to incoming particals, seems like it would need to be like earths, NS out of the galactic plane some information here too https://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/FAQs6.html |
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NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a second home
john wrote:
Just build the Space Elevator right out to Mars and plug in. That sounds like a great...proposes! but don't you want to dig a hole first? i proposes to dig a hole through the earth to make an elevator to China, then keeping building to Mars. would i end up upside down in China? or are they upside down?? how do i get to Mars right side up??? |
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NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a second home
On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:50:41 -0600, S Ergio wrote:
mars is 92,900,000 miles from the sun and L1 was stated as 655,000 miles out, or 0.7% of the way. You're over 50 million miles short with that figure, that's about the 93 million miles Earth is from the sun. Are you getting these from memory or a dubious source? -- Faster, cheaper, quieter than HS2 and built in 5 years; UKUltraspeed http://www.500kmh.com/ |
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NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a secondhome
On 3/9/2017 1:04 PM, Rodney Pont wrote:
On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:50:41 -0600, S Ergio wrote: mars is 92,900,000 miles from the sun and L1 was stated as 655,000 miles out, or 0.7% of the way. You're over 50 million miles short with that figure, that's about the 93 million miles Earth is from the sun. Are you getting these from memory or a dubious source? picked it from some website, and they are wrong, is that my second mistake for this year ? Oh no! |
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NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a secondhome
On 3/9/2017 9:47 AM, S Ergio wrote:
On 3/8/2017 9:44 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote: On 3/8/2017 12:51 PM, S Ergio wrote: thanks for the info, that dude should have provided the numbers to back himself up, back of the envelope should do. I'm sure he has, this is just a popular science article which summarizes his proposal, and gives you an idea about what some scientists have come up with. It's up to you to go see his original proposal paper, if you want more details. so how much is the field 655,000 miles away from a one T source ? Actually the magnetic field strength drops away by a factor of inverse cubed not inverse squared. so it is far weaker than d^(-2), for a rough order of magnitude, compair 1 mile out vs 655,000 miles out 1/(655000)^3 = 3.56 * 10^(-18) so if the source could generate a 1 T field a mile away, then 655,000 miles away the field is 3.56 E-18, so the generator has no field on Mars. But it really doesn't matter how strong the magnetic field is at the surface of Mars, just so long as it's ahead of Mars and it produces a large enough bow shock pattern, similar to how the bow shock pattern is produced ahead of Earth, diverting the solar wind away from Earth. but the L1 is not in the path of Sun to Mars, where particles go. It is at L1 way out of the way, 60 degrees off. diagram here; http://www.spaceacademy.net.au/libra...s/lagrangp.htm That diagram appears to be wrong, it has the L1 and L2 reversed. Other sources show the L1 is directly between the planet and the Sun. http://www.space.com/30302-lagrange-points.html how much fuel on board with the sattilite need to compensate for pushing particals around? Don't know, perhaps they'll find a clever way to use the magnetic field itself as a propulsion tool to keep it stable in the L1? nothing to push aginst. one has to eject mass. Push against the solar wind. If Earth sailors found clever sail designs to sail against the atmospheric wind hundreds of years ago, I'm sure the same principles can work against the solar wind. And who knows, maybe NASA will have completely proven that the EMDRIVE works by then too, and then there's another way to keep stuff in orbit properly. We are talking in the distant future for all of this stuff, after all. :-) Gamma rays are not deflected and come in at full strength to the ground, on earth the atmosphere protects us from 95% of them. so how much gamma can a crew take ? a year or two ? The magnetic field doesn't protect against any kind of EM radiation, no matter what. All it protects against is the solar winds. This in turn creates a shield of the upper atmosphere to protect against the high energy photons from penetrating into the lower atmosphere. No such shield on Mars, need a lot of atmosphere, on earth yes, [that is why we are able to live on the surface of earth, atmosphere blocks most gammas] Exactly, the Martian atmosphere is so depleted that we couldn't even get it to protect us against high-energy photons. So somehow, if we're going to terraform Mars, we are going to have put the magnetic shield up to give the atmosphere a fighting chance to thicken up, and then we have to thicken it up. If we thicken it, without a magnetic shield, it's just going to thin out again. Fortunately, gamma rays are usually an uncommon type of photons in the universe, as most of the gamma rays occur inside the cores of stars during nuclear fusion, and they all get diffused into lower energy photons by the time they exit the star's photosphere. Most sources of raw gamma rays are things such as supernovas and quasars, and those are very directional in their nature. Another advantage is that these sources of gamma rays are also pretty distant. the sun emits gamma, and being distant does not make them weaker, The Sun emits a small amount of gamma, it mainly emits in the visible part of the spectrum, especially in the green part of it. Thus we've evolved to see in the optical ranges. If we grew up on a red dwarf, we'd evolve to see in the infrared and red part of the spectrum. By and large, the gamma radiation produced in the core gets bounced around inside the core and the radiative layers, until it's been reduced down to at worst UV. 99% of the radiation coming from the Sun is in the UV, visible, and IR ranges. The remaining 1% is whatever else you have. http://uv.biospherical.com/student/page3.html And of course, distance makes radiation weaker, you pointed to it yourself, its intensity goes down by the square of distance. Gamma Ray Bursts are aimed directly at the Earth, that's why we see them as GRB's, otherwise we'd see them only as supernovas. But due to their distance from us, their gamma rays have little effect on us. If the GRB's were within a few thousand light-years of us and aimed directly at us, then we'd be in trouble. https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...rnovae.312925/ and again, to cosmic rays, at what angle can they be deflected from orgional their path, using a magnetic field, is it only 1 or 2 degrees ? Earth's magnetic field doesn't stop cosmic rays either, they tend to hit the Earth relatively unopposed. they get changed, typically they smash into the atmosphere and cause partical showers, into thousands of less energetic particals, and hit the surface as a disk shape a few hundred meters across and about 1 or 2 meters thick. They can hit anywhere, it's just that the atmosphere is the first thing in their path. Some have been known to penetrate to the ground, hence the reason they try to put neutrino detectors deep underground to avoid detecting cosmic rays. Again fortunately due to the fact that cosmic rays are high energy particles produced by supernovas and active galactic nuclei, they are relatively rare. sun makes a lot of them for local use, sun spots etc Cosmic rays are interstellar, relativistic, and originate out of blackholes and supernovas. The Sun makes solar winds out of the same materials (protons and electrons), and they are sub-relativistic. so there are some questionable points that NASA guy's idea still has. I think he moved it from the surface, because the path would not be long enough to effect change, and moving to L1 is good for stability of orbit, but not for diverting particals in path from sun, then the loss infield strength... As stated previously, the L1 is the one in the path of the Sun. So it will divert solar winds away from the planet behind it. Yousuf Khan |
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NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a second home
On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 21:37:48 -0500, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Push against the solar wind. If Earth sailors found clever sail designs to sail against the atmospheric wind hundreds of years ago, I'm sure the same principles can work against the solar wind. Isn't this the ideal application of that magnetic scoop to collect particles and an ion drive to keep it in position? -- Faster, cheaper, quieter than HS2 and built in 5 years; UKUltraspeed http://www.500kmh.com/ |
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NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a second home
On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 15:31:54 -0600, S Ergio wrote:
mars is 92,900,000 miles from the sun and L1 was stated as 655,000 miles out, or 0.7% of the way. You're over 50 million miles short with that figure, that's about the 93 million miles Earth is from the sun. Are you getting these from memory or a dubious source? picked it from some website, and they are wrong, is that my second mistake for this year ? Oh no! I'm not keeping a count but two basic errors in the one thread is some going. Perhaps you could notify your source website(s) :-) -- Faster, cheaper, quieter than HS2 and built in 5 years; UKUltraspeed http://www.500kmh.com/ |
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NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a secondhome
On 3/9/2017 4:31 PM, S Ergio wrote:
picked it from some website, and they are wrong, is that my second mistake for this year ? Oh no! That's at least your 3rd mistake, just in this thread alone. Where are you picking your sources of information from? Yousuf Khan |
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NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a secondhome
On 3/10/2017 12:38 AM, Rodney Pont wrote:
On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 21:37:48 -0500, Yousuf Khan wrote: Push against the solar wind. If Earth sailors found clever sail designs to sail against the atmospheric wind hundreds of years ago, I'm sure the same principles can work against the solar wind. Isn't this the ideal application of that magnetic scoop to collect particles and an ion drive to keep it in position? Even an ion drive will eventually run out of propellant. Then either you go up to refuel the ion drive, or just make it a disposable spacecraft, and when one runs out of fuel, you replace it with another one. Wasteful. |
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NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a second home
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:51:59 -0500, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Push against the solar wind. If Earth sailors found clever sail designs to sail against the atmospheric wind hundreds of years ago, I'm sure the same principles can work against the solar wind. Isn't this the ideal application of that magnetic scoop to collect particles and an ion drive to keep it in position? Even an ion drive will eventually run out of propellant. Then either you go up to refuel the ion drive, or just make it a disposable spacecraft, and when one runs out of fuel, you replace it with another one. Wasteful. That's why I suggested the scoop, to collect more propellant. I'm sure I've seen a proposed spacecraft with a huge magnetic scoop collecting particles to fuel the ion drive. -- Faster, cheaper, quieter than HS2 and built in 5 years; UKUltraspeed http://www.500kmh.com/ |
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