Sunrise

On Jan 28, 10:14*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 1/28/12 3:32 PM, oriel36 wrote:

You are free to enjoy the analemma as you see it but what you cannot
have are the wandering planets and a wandering Sun in the same
celestial arena.

* *I do enjoy Anthony's excellent analemma photography!
* * *http://www.perseus.gr/Astro-Solar-Analemma.htm

* *Furthermore, I share his work with my college students.


Talking yourselves into irrelevance is worse than being wrong.



* *One's perspective can certainly simplify the understanding
* *of pattern's of planetary motion. Praise be to Copernicus,
* *Kepler, Galileo and Newton.

Kepler did model the wandering motions of Mars against the stellar
background along with the resolution which is that they are an
illusion seen by the Earth overtaking the planet -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...retrograde.jpg

"Copernicus, by attributing a single annual motion to the earth,
entirely rids the planets of these extremely intricate coils,leading
the individual planets into their respective orbits,quite bare and
very nearly circular. In the period of time shown in the diagram, Mars
traverses one and the same orbit as many times as the 'garlands' you
see looped towards the center,with one extra, making nine times, while
at the same time the Earth repeats its circle sixteen times "Kepler

There is only room for the wandering planets in the celestial arena so
the wandering analemma Sun is repulsive when compared the insights
and methods of the great astronomers even though you use their names
yet misrepresent their works.The analemma is an Ra/Dec generated
concept so it is the most visible sign of the bigger picture much like
the Piltdown Man skull represents bigger flaws in reasoning yet in
comparison,the analemma and what it represents is many,many magnitudes
greater in damage.

So,what you are all going to talk about with this hoax right at the
center of astronomy is hardly my concern,this is forensics and you can
only go so far with that .

On Jan 25, 4:14*am, Science Fan wrote:
What's the name of the phenomenon that causes the sun to continue to
rise later, even though the winter solstice has passed? *TIA.

How about "diurnal lag". It's fairly descriptive although not very
specific.

Ben

On 1/29/12 2:39 AM, oriel36 wrote:
There is only room for the wandering planets in the celestial arena so
the wandering analemma Sun is repulsive when compared the insights
and methods of the great astronomers even though you use their names
yet misrepresent their works.The analemma is an Ra/Dec generated
concept so it is the most visible sign of the bigger picture much like
the Piltdown Man skull represents bigger flaws in reasoning yet in
comparison,the analemma and what it represents is many,many magnitudes
greater in damage.



The analemma is a graphic representation of the equation of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Analemma_Earth.png
The earth's orbit is elliptical, as a result sunrise, solar noon and
sunset get ahead and behind. The eccentricity of the earth orbit and
the obliquity of the ecliptic are the largest factors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

On Jan 29, 5:57*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 1/29/12 2:39 AM, oriel36 wrote:

There is only room for the wandering planets in the celestial arena so
the wandering analemma Sun is repulsive when compared *the insights
and methods of the great astronomers even though you use their names
yet misrepresent their works.The analemma is an Ra/Dec generated
concept so it is the most visible sign of the bigger picture much like
the Piltdown Man skull represents bigger flaws in reasoning yet in
comparison,the analemma and what it represents is many,many magnitudes
greater in damage.

* *The analemma is a graphic representation of the equation of time.


The analemma is a disruptive hoax that is preventing necessary
modifications from making it into wider circulation.

There is nothing left to say,if the scientific community,should it
wish to call itself that,is determined to remain stuck with a
wandering Sun explained by the daily and orbital motions of the Earth
then it condemns itself to a condition of irrelevance as the budget
for such a ridiculous analemma ideology is nil.The true wanderers,the
planets, and their wandering motion will continue to be the only valid
perspective and the resolution for retrogrades is the main argument
for the Earth's orbital motion between Venus and Mars but I don't need
to go that far,do I.

Very different feeling knowing that we all are looking at the same
picture and especially the use of modern imaging to counter the
analemma distraction with the main Western astronomical insight that
uses the wandering motions of the planets to account for our own
orbital motion,each wandering motion different than the next yet all
telling the same great story -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap100613.html

The wider world needs a few points of rest where it can enjoy genuine
achievements such as that of Copernicus and we just don;t need a
useless ideology of a wandering analemma Sun competing for attention
with the true wanderers - the planets.

On Jan 28, 2:50*pm, oriel36 wrote:

I am no longer giving people a choice because there really isn't any -
planetary retrogrades and their resolution or nothing at all.

We all agree with Copernicus' and Kepler's resolution of planetary
retrogades as an illusion caused by the Earth's orbital motion around
the Sun.

So we don't need a "choice" there, as there is no disagreement.

We use clockwork to follow the motions of the Earth and the other
planets because the planets and the stars, while in the "heavens", are
still part of the world, like the Earth. The celestial realm is *not*
the Heavenly realm, the abode of God and His angels - that is beyond
our physical reality, and it is not possible to see that with a
telescope.

So it is no debasement for Newton to use the same laws that apply to
shooting cannonballs to explain the Moon's orbit - the Moon is part of
the physical world, not the spiritual world.

John Savard

oriel36 wrote:
On Jan 29, 5:57 pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 1/29/12 2:39 AM, oriel36 wrote:

There is only room for the wandering planets in the celestial arena so
the wandering analemma Sun is repulsive when compared the insights
and methods of the great astronomers even though you use their names
yet misrepresent their works.The analemma is an Ra/Dec generated
concept so it is the most visible sign of the bigger picture much like
the Piltdown Man skull represents bigger flaws in reasoning yet in
comparison,the analemma and what it represents is many,many magnitudes
greater in damage.

The analemma is a graphic representation of the equation of time.


The analemma is a disruptive hoax

You'll have to do better than that son!

Hoax!

Any schoolchild could show you it's no hoax.

http://radiochildcare.org/AstronomyW.../analemma.html

Try it with your broom handle!

"oriel36" wrote in message
...
The analemma is a disruptive hoax that is preventing necessary
modifications from making it into wider circulation.

If you think the analemma is a 'hoax', then you don't really understand it
(or pretend not to).

Hint: it has absolutely *nothing* to do with wandering planets
(or a 'wandering Sun').

On Jan 29, 9:25*pm, "Gavino" wrote:
"oriel36" wrote in message

...

The analemma is a disruptive hoax that is preventing necessary
modifications from making it into wider circulation.

If you think the analemma is a 'hoax', then you don't really understand it
(or pretend not to).


I have a few proofreading issues and a few technical details to clear
up and not least the modification to 'axial precession' as it is
currently classed and analysed. The motion of the Sun is seen to move
from horizon to horizon in a direct way as it scribes greater or
smaller arcs depending on where the Earth is in its orbital
cycle ,there is no figure '8',just a continuous spiral captured in
this contemporary sequential imaging as the Earth turns in its daily
cycle and simultaneously,yet separately,makes a circuit of the Sun -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120121.html

The analemma is a distraction as it tries to impose an alternative
structure through timekeeping averages so what would normally be a
harmless exercise for photographers turns into a disruptive hoax which
prevents a clearer view of what causes the seasons and variations in
the natural noon cycles.


Hint: it has absolutely *nothing* to do with wandering planets
(or a 'wandering Sun').

The annual variations in the height of the Sun from June to December
require an additional orbital component which amounts to a traveling
axis around which the polar coordinates turn to the central Sun.The
components of the daily rotational characteristics and the orbital
components are contained in the following graphic -

http://www.simpletoremember.com/imag...ds/erthaxs.jpg

The discontinuous line represents the orbital characteristics of a
traveling axis running through the center of the Earth from Arctic to
Antarctic circles with an orthogonal line running through the center
of the Earth from roughly he tropic of Cancer to the tropic of
Capricorn.The polar coordinates turn in a circle about the
discontinuous line so this explains why at the North/South poles they
turn through the circle of illumination at the equinoxes which divide
6 months of daylight from 6 months of darkness depending on where the
Earth is in its orbital cycle.Ignoring the direction of the arrows,the
annual precession of the polar coordinates to the central Sun is more
or less like this -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...precession.svg

It is a quasi-rotation as it originates from the orbital behavior of
the Earth and the polar coordinates act like a beacon or a window into
the orbital behavior of the planet.A simple imitation analogy with a
broom handle substituting for the daily rotation of the Earth in
fixing it constantly to an external point at 23 1/2 degrees off the
line of your body as you walk/orbit a central object/Sun will show
that the tip of the broom will precess to the central Sun about the
orbital axis formed by the line of your body and seen in the earlier
graphic as a discontinuous line.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/imag...ds/erthaxs.jpg

If the graphic above expressed the June Solstice with the Sun to the
right,the angle between the rotational axis and the line orthogonal to
the orbital axis is acute hence the Sun scribes a large arc from
horizon to horizon and, half an annual circuit later, as the Northern
polar coordinates turn around to the December orbital point,the angle
between the rotational axis and the orbital line becomes obtuse hence
smaller arcs.At the equinox as the polar coordinates turn to split the
circle of illumination and mid-way between the greater and smaller
arcs,the rotational axis lines up with the orbital axis from a view
consistent with the other two descriptions using the graphic above.

No figure '8' Sun distracting from daily and orbital dynamics and the
new approach to the reason we have the seasons and the variations in
the natural noon cycle.It deserves a formal presentation but
unfortunately I have no way of knowing at what level these things are
understood even when cross referencing using images of other planets
is more than sufficient to arrive at common principles and motivate
astronomers to adapting to the new approach.This was never an exercise
in disproving a hoax like the analemma,it was a much weightier matter
of adjusting 'axial precession' to an orbital feature thereby easing
the strain on explaining the seasons properly.

On 1/30/12 3:08 AM, oriel36 wrote:
The analemma is a distraction as it tries to impose an alternative
structure through timekeeping averages...

Gerald obviously does not understand the analemma!

On 1/30/12 10:11 AM, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 1/30/12 3:08 AM, oriel36 wrote:
The analemma is a distraction as it tries to impose an alternative
structure through timekeeping averages...

Gerald obviously does not understand the analemma!


Since the Earth's *mean solar day* is almost exactly 24 hours, an
analemma can be traced by plotting the position of the Sun as viewed
from a fixed position on Earth at the same clock time every day for an
entire year. The resulting curve resembles a lemniscate of Bernoulli.
This curve is commonly printed on globes, usually in the eastern Pacific
Ocean, the only large tropical region with very little land. It is
possible, though challenging, to photograph the analemma, by leaving the
camera in a fixed position for an entire year and snapping images on
24-hour intervals (or some multiple thereof).