Sunrise

On Jan 26, 7:12*am, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:
Quadibloc wrote:
On Jan 25, 7:25 am, oriel36 wrote:

Explaining observations like these requires building up a picture of
the motions behind it but sadly in this era,even when you can see
sunrise from space and a rotating Earth as the cause,the dominant
view is that there are 1465 rotations in 1461 days hence any
explanations you may receive are simply assertions without substance.

That "dominant view" is precisely what is necessary for building up an
accurate picture of the motions behind the Equation of Time.

The Equation of Time is a variance in the 24 hour natural noon cycle.
If that cycle is the direct consequence of variations in the speed of
the Earth's rotation, there is nothing to explain - it just happens
that way for some mysterious reason.

An Earth that rotates at a steady, uniform speed - that would not
change how it rotates unless some force pushes on it - is the
starting- point we need to explain the Equation of Time physically.
It is only by viewing the Earth's rotational motion in relation to
the distant stars that we obtain such a rotation - with a period of
23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds.

Then we can see that the Equation of Time results from the Earth's
annual orbit - which, combined with a rotation of such a period,
produces a day/night cycle that averages to 24 hours - not being a
perfect circle and in the plane of the Equator. Those two effects mean
that the direction to the Sun from the Earth does not advance
uniformly over the course of a year, so the one rotation that is lost,
not becoming a day, is taken away at slightly unequal parts at
different times of the year.

John Savard

Equation of Time is the result of a combination of the elliptical orbit and
the inclination of the axis of rotation to the plane of Earth's orbit.

This doesn't work,at the December solstice when the Sun is scribing
out its largest arc at the latitude of Sydney,it it scribing its
shortest arc at London and as the natural noon correction is valid for
all latitudes on the planet where the Sun is seen at noon,declination
plays no role in determining Natural noon nor in the conversion to the
AM/PM cycle of the 24 hour day.

Is it so difficult to conceive that the total length of the natural
noon cycles is a global effect and not a hemispherical one ?.All it
requires is a grounding observation that the total length of noon
cycles vary,daily and orbital rotations are involved and the answer is
pretty much there.The Hubble time lapse footage shows the South to
North daily rotation of Uranus and simultaneously it East to West
orbital component,call it a quasi-rotation if you like,but the planet
does turn to the central Sun with a single orbital rotation coincident
with the orbital period.

http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/arc...99/11/video/b/




If the orbit were perfectly circular, there would still be Eq of T with a
variation that looks like a double sine wave when plotted.


The Earth's orbital speed varies and with it the orbital component,as
the planet unevenly turns to the Sun effects the total length of the
noon cycle but at least we are keeping the dual motions of the Earth
fixed to the central Sun where they belong.It is almost a decade ago
when Schlyter stuck his neck out on this topic and was corrected yet
in that decade imaging power and more information has emerged that I
could't have posted back then such as the East to West turning of
Uranus when allied with the South to North daily rotation effectively
affirms the issue to a certainty -

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/...gs_changes.jpg






--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

On 1/26/12 2:18 AM, oriel36 wrote:
The Earth's orbital speed varies and with it the orbital component,as
the planet unevenly turns to the Sun effects the total length of the
noon cycle...

The earth's orbit is elliptical, as a result sunrise, solar noon and
sunset get ahead and behind. The eccentricity of the earth orbit and
the obliquity of the ecliptic are the largest factors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

On Jan 26, 2:30*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 1/26/12 2:18 AM, oriel36 wrote:

The Earth's orbital speed varies and with it the orbital component,as
the planet unevenly turns to the Sun effects the total length of the
noon cycle...

* *The earth's orbit is elliptical, as a result sunrise, solar noon and
* *sunset get ahead and behind. The eccentricity of the earth orbit and
* *the obliquity of the ecliptic are the largest factors.
* * *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

I guess you live on a hemispherical Earth as below the equator the
variations in declination are reversed hence the Equation of Time has
nothing whatsoever to do with the height of the Sun,it has to do with
the two rotations to the central Sun although I am willing to consider
the orbital component as a quasi-rotation insofar as it manifests
itself as a trait of the orbital behavior of the planet and easily
recognizable in the East to West rotation of Uranus to the central Sun
-

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/...gs_changes.jpg

I have no doubt that these combined motions have already been
interpreted correctly as the cause of natural noon variations however
it has a greater significance for explaining the difference between
seasonal weather patterns within the encompassing structure of global
climate but unfortunately readers have to join me in the 21st century
by cross referencing planetary systems to arrive at a workable
solution.

You believe in 1465 rotations in 1461 days and have no business trying
to discuss the Equation of Time for there are 1461 natural noon
cycles across 4 orbital periods with Feb 29th as the 1461st day/
rotation closing out those 4 orbital circuits so whatever madness is
driving you to assume 4 extra rotations that the Earth doesn't
have,students should not have to hear it.This is completely
unacceptable,the option to deal with the issue is contingent on
structures being in place and there is not a single one that I could
called organized to handle an issue which surpasses the Gregorian
correction by many magnitudes in importance.

Do you really want to believe in 1465 rotations in 1461 days ?,I would
suffer severe nausea just thinking about what is being forced on
students for no good reason other than there is no authority who can
sort the issues out and despite astronomy being an individual and very
personal endeavor,its insights are not subject to the mishandling by
anyone and especially the basic planetary facts.

Tell me Sam,the Equatorial circumference is 24901 miles and 15 degrees
of geographical separation at the equator is 1037.5 miles and also 1
hour's time difference for each 15 degrees.What is the equatorial
speed per hour as the Earth turns through the circle of
illumination ?.The very fact that I have to ask that question and you
won't answer it is a self inflicted tragedy that you share with
everyone else here.

On Jan 26, 1:09*am, Davoud wrote:
palsing to oriel:

No, not even close. You have been told umpteen times that sidereal
rotation and sidereal time have nothing whatsoever to do with the Sun.....

You know that he's been told umpteen times (closer to sixty-leben,
probably) and /you/ still don't get it?


The daily temperature goes up and down on Feb 29th in response to the
rotation of the Earth within that final 24 hour period covering 4
years and 4 orbital circuits of the Earth that began Mar1st 2008.If a
person manages to count those 1461 days,common sense would dictate
that there are a proportion of 1461 rotations to 4 orbital circuits
which reduces to a proportion of 365 1/4 rotations to 1 orbital
circuit.

Any doubts then look at a rotating Earth in a 24 hour period and if
you can find room for 1465 rotations in 1461 days then you lack common
sense or common decency -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxrIMHKobk0

Appealing to the indoctrinated is not my agenda,if you can find a way
to fit 367 rotations of the Earth into the 366 days covering Mar 1st
2011 to Feb 29th 2012 and still account for the daily temperature
rises and falls for each 24 hour rotation then good for you.

The sensible view is that there are 1461 rotations of the Earth
covering 4 circuits of the Earth around the Sun and science doesn't
exist if this fact is not affirmed and affirmed aggressively until
your cult mentality is no more.





--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

On Jan 26, 1:09*am, Davoud wrote:
palsing to oriel:

No, not even close. You have been told umpteen times that sidereal
rotation and sidereal time have nothing whatsoever to do with the Sun.....

You know that he's been told umpteen times (closer to sixty-leben,
probably) and /you/ still don't get it?

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

No wonder you keep your website off saa,I had a ball as you denounce
the American public on their lack of knowledge that the Earth doesn't
turn once in a day -

"The lack of even a basic understanding of science among the American
people is appalling. Most people can’t answer the most basic questions
about the world around them. How long does it take for the Earth to
complete one rotation on its axis? (Hint: it’s not 24 hours.) Why do
we have seasons? What are the equinoxes? The solstices? (Hint: they're
tied to the reason we have seasons.)" Davoud

http://www.primordial-light.com/scienceis.html

Don't worry about theories,try your own eyes for a change -

ww/watch?v=JxrIMHKobk0w.youtube.com

On May 29th 2008 when that video was taken,the Earth turned once and
the day after that and the next one until in a number of weeks,the
Earth will turn the full 1461 rotations in proportion to the separate
4 orbital circuits of the Earth around the Sun.The meteorology guys
who watch the temperature go up and down daily normally would concur
but so far have shown themselves to be no better or worse than you
are.

Disappear back into your box where you can discuss the carpet on your
observatory floor or something of that nature.

On 1/26/12 12:45 PM, oriel36 wrote:
On Jan 26, 2:30 pm, Sam wrote:
On 1/26/12 2:18 AM, oriel36 wrote:

The Earth's orbital speed varies and with it the orbital component,as
the planet unevenly turns to the Sun effects the total length of the
noon cycle...

The earth's orbit is elliptical, as a result sunrise, solar noon and
sunset get ahead and behind. The eccentricity of the earth orbit and
the obliquity of the ecliptic are the largest factors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

I guess you live on a hemispherical Earth as below the equator the
variations in declination are reversed hence the Equation of Time has
nothing whatsoever to do with the height of the Sun,it has to do with
the two rotations to the central Sun although I am willing to consider
the orbital component as a quasi-rotation insofar as it manifests
itself as a trait of the orbital behavior of the planet and easily
recognizable in the East to West rotation of Uranus to the central Sun
-

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/...gs_changes.jpg

I have no doubt that these combined motions have already been
interpreted correctly as the cause of natural noon variations however
it has a greater significance for explaining the difference between
seasonal weather patterns within the encompassing structure of global
climate but unfortunately readers have to join me in the 21st century
by cross referencing planetary systems to arrive at a workable
solution.

You believe in 1465 rotations in 1461 days and have no business trying
to discuss the Equation of Time for there are 1461 natural noon
cycles across 4 orbital periods with Feb 29th as the 1461st day/
rotation closing out those 4 orbital circuits so whatever madness is
driving you to assume 4 extra rotations that the Earth doesn't
have,students should not have to hear it.This is completely
unacceptable,the option to deal with the issue is contingent on
structures being in place and there is not a single one that I could
called organized to handle an issue which surpasses the Gregorian
correction by many magnitudes in importance.

Do you really want to believe in 1465 rotations in 1461 days ?,I would
suffer severe nausea just thinking about what is being forced on
students for no good reason other than there is no authority who can
sort the issues out and despite astronomy being an individual and very
personal endeavor,its insights are not subject to the mishandling by
anyone and especially the basic planetary facts.

Tell me Sam,the Equatorial circumference is 24901 miles and 15 degrees
of geographical separation at the equator is 1037.5 miles and also 1
hour's time difference for each 15 degrees.What is the equatorial
speed per hour as the Earth turns through the circle of
illumination ?.The very fact that I have to ask that question and you
won't answer it is a self inflicted tragedy that you share with
everyone else here.

Gerald lives for his nonsensical replies! Apparently no other
"pleasures" in his life.

The earth's orbit is elliptical, as a result sunrise, solar noon and
sunset get ahead and behind. The eccentricity of the earth orbit and
the obliquity of the ecliptic are the largest factors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

On Jan 26, 9:13*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 1/26/12 12:45 PM, oriel36 wrote:









On Jan 26, 2:30 pm, Sam *wrote:
On 1/26/12 2:18 AM, oriel36 wrote:

The Earth's orbital speed varies and with it the orbital component,as
the planet unevenly turns to the Sun effects the total length of the
noon cycle...

* * The earth's orbit is elliptical, as a result sunrise, solar noon and
* * sunset get ahead and behind. The eccentricity of the earth orbit and
* * the obliquity of the ecliptic are the largest factors.
* * *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

I guess you live on a hemispherical Earth as below the equator the
variations in declination are reversed hence the Equation of Time has
nothing whatsoever to do with the height of the Sun,it has to do with
the two rotations to the central Sun although I am willing to consider
the orbital component as a quasi-rotation insofar as it manifests
itself as a trait of the orbital behavior of the planet and easily
recognizable in the East to West rotation of Uranus to the central Sun
-

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/...gs_changes.jpg

I have no doubt that these combined motions have already been
interpreted correctly *as the cause of natural noon variations however
it has a greater significance for explaining the difference between
seasonal weather patterns within the encompassing structure of global
climate but unfortunately readers have to join me in the 21st century
by cross referencing planetary systems to arrive at a workable
solution.

You believe in 1465 rotations in 1461 days and have no business trying
to discuss the Equation of Time *for there are 1461 natural noon
cycles across 4 orbital periods with Feb 29th as the 1461st day/
rotation closing out those 4 orbital circuits so whatever madness is
driving you to assume 4 extra rotations that the Earth doesn't
have,students should not have to hear it.This is completely
unacceptable,the option to deal with the issue is contingent on
structures being in place and there is not a single one that I could
called organized to handle an issue which surpasses the Gregorian
correction by many magnitudes in importance.

Do you really want to believe in 1465 rotations in 1461 days ?,I would
suffer severe nausea just thinking about what is being forced on
students for no good reason other than there is no authority who can
sort the issues out and despite astronomy being an individual and very
personal endeavor,its insights are not subject to the mishandling by
anyone and especially the basic planetary facts.

Tell me Sam,the Equatorial circumference is 24901 miles and 15 degrees
of geographical separation at the equator is 1037.5 miles and also 1
hour's time difference for each 15 degrees.What is the equatorial
speed per hour *as the Earth turns through the circle of
illumination ?.The very fact that I have to ask that question and you
won't answer it is a self inflicted tragedy that you share with
everyone else here.

* *Gerald lives for his nonsensical replies! Apparently no other
* *"pleasures" in his life.


In the worst possible situation of a type the world hasn't seen
before, the normal response is simply to begin with the known
experiences within a 24 hour period and infer that one 24 hour
rotation of the Earth such as daily temperature fluctuations in tandem
with day turning to night and keep in step way throughout the 4
orbital circuits of the Earth around the Sun.In short there are 1461
rotations enclosed in the period that began Mar 1st 2008 and will end
Feb 29th as the 1461 st rotation.

I can't say what this is,it is not betrayal as there is no known
reason why anyone,astronomer or not,could imagine 1465 rotations in
the 1461 noon cycles in proportion to 4 orbital circuits and yet
almost every single day for a decade I have fought to keep this fact
front and center until somebody with common sense had the wits about
them to understand the consequences.I can talk about fundamental
rights of students, the hacket job done on astronomy by empiricists
attempting to bridge astronomy with experimental sciences,the sheer
mess of the present situation but I cannot account for why people
could knowingly suffer something as awful and an imbalance between
days and rotations as you have it at 1465 rotations for 1461 days.

You have no idea what sacrifices I have made so that no student will
ever have to sit before a teacher and be indoctrinated into what is
essentially a right ascension cult which tries to justify stellar
circumpolar motion without the physical considerations on using an
average 24 hour day in the 365/366 day format.By the grace of God I
will not fail and this is no revenge talk but that goodness in
humanity that none of you can ever extinguish no matter how dominant
you appear to be and be that it may that I stand alone with the three
known facts which are central to all astronomy,I will not permit a
dismal and faith hating bunch to dictate to the wider population and
alternative and ridiculous set of values.


Here are the 3 core principles that do not take a holiday even if men
choose to -

1 - The equatorial Earth turns at a rate of 15 degrees/1037.5 miles
per hour and a full 24901 mile circumference in 24 hours

2- The Earth turns 1461 times in 1461 days to the nearest rotation in
proportion to 4 orbital circuits of the Sun

3 The are 365 1/4 rotations enclosed on 1 orbital circuit.

The refinements haven't even begun yet and there is no entity in
existence presently with the motivation to secure those basic facts
let alone refine them.

You won't argue with those facts,that much I know but they are the
foundations on which astronomy is built,either timekeeping or
structural/dynamical astronomy.The people in the late 17th and 18th
century are not to blame,they made a bad mistake but it is our
generation,with all its technology,that cannot support their error nor
the people who promote it.

On Jan 25, 4:14*am, Science Fan wrote:
What's the name of the phenomenon that causes the sun to continue to
rise later, even though the winter solstice has passed? *TIA.

I don't know what it's *called*, but as others have said, it
is related to the Equation of Time. However, the declination
of the Sun is also involved.

One interesting way to think about it (at least, I've found
it interesting) is to think not about the Sun itself rising and
setting, but about the *analemma* rising and setting. The
analemma is that elongated figure-eight that we often see
on your pricier globes, and it is essentially a parametric
plot of the Equation of Time (x-axis) and the declination of
the Sun (y-axis).

The analemma is aligned along a north-south line, more or
less. (It's not exact, but close enough for this discussion.)
As such, in the northern hemisphere, where the north
celestial pole (NCP) is above the horizon and the south
celestial pole (SCP) is below the horizon, the analemma is
tilted over to the left when it rises, and over to the right
when it sets. For instance, face east, and the NCP is to
your left and above the horizon and the SCP is to your
right and below the horizon. So, the line connecting them
through the horizon is tilted to the left. OK so far?

Now let's consider sunrise. Since the analemma is tilted
to the left at sunrise, the top of it rises before the bottom
does. The top of the analemma represents the summer
solstice, and the bottom of it the winter solstice. So, in
other words, the Sun rises earlier in summer than it does
in winter. Big deal!

But actually, it is a bit of a deal. Because the analemma
is not a stick, but is a figure-eight with definite width, the
latest rising of the analemma does not exactly correspond
to its very bottom. If you draw a figure-eight tilted to the
left, you'll see that the latest rising corresponds to a point
on the lower left of the analemma. The Sun rounds both
the upper and lower bowls of the analemma moving to the
left, so that's why the latest rising comes *after* the winter
solstice. And interestingly, that's true in both hemispheres.

What's more, the exact point of the latest sunrise depends
on the latitude. The closer to the equator, the more tipped
over the analemma at sunrise and sunset, and the more
extreme the delay between solstice and latest sunrise.
Right at the equator, the time of sunrise doesn't depend at
all (directly) on the declination of the Sun, but is a function
solely of the Equation of Time.

An interesting exercise is to figure out what happens in the
Arctic and Antarctic regions.

--
Brian Tung (posting from Google Groups)
The Astronomy Corner at http://www.astronomycorner.net/
Unofficial C5+ Page at http://www.astronomycorner.net/c5plus/
My PleiadAtlas Page at http://www.astronomycorner.net/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ at http://www.astronomycorner.net/reference/faq.html

I (Brian Tung) wrote:
One interesting way to think about it (at least, I've found
it interesting) is to think not about the Sun itself rising and
setting, but about the *analemma* rising and setting.
[big ol' snip]

I forgot to say: The reason to think of the analemma rising
and setting is that the analemma is tied to the *mean Sun*,
which advances at a constant rate. That is to say, the
analemma as a whole rises exactly every 24 hours. So
any day-to-day variation in the rising and setting times of
the Sun are due solely to where the Sun happens to be on
the analemma.

--
Brian Tung (posting from Google Groups)
The Astronomy Corner at http://www.astronomycorner.net/
Unofficial C5+ Page at http://www.astronomycorner.net/c5plus/
My PleiadAtlas Page at http://www.astronomycorner.net/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ at http://www.astronomycorner.net/reference/faq.html

I (Brian Tung) wrote:
The Sun rounds both
the upper and lower bowls of the analemma moving to the
left, so that's why the latest rising comes *after* the winter
solstice. *And interestingly, that's true in both hemispheres.

As a post-postscript...

After I wrote this, it occurred to me that something interesting
happens in the southern hemisphere, as a consequence of
the southern bowl of the analemma being wider than the
northern bowl.

--
Brian Tung (posting from Google Groups)
The Astronomy Corner at http://www.astronomycorner.net/
Unofficial C5+ Page at http://www.astronomycorner.net/c5plus/
My PleiadAtlas Page at http://www.astronomycorner.net/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ at http://www.astronomycorner.net/reference/faq.html