The leap day

It is hard to imagine why people in this era of great technological
advancement would choose to betray the intricate structure we inherit
from the great astronomers in antiquity who fixed the 24 hour day and
later that value to daily rotation through 360 degrees,who took these
daily cycles and rotations and determined 365 1/4 rotations for an
annual/orbital circuit and then to craft the structure of a leap day
in order to maintain a steady progression of 24 hour days into a
steady progression of years using these days.Who would marvel at the
6 hour orbital drift through Mar 1st from year to year with the 1461
st rotation of Feb 29th that brings the rotations back in sync
corresponding to 4 cycles of 365 1/4 rotations.

You literally have to be a monster to reject this system even if
nobody has to be held accountable for the error that introduced an
alternative value for rotation through 360 degrees and subsequently an
alternative and nonsensical amount of rotations in an orbital
circuit,it is not something where it is possible to excuse yourself or
hide from and who would want to ?.

On Oct 5, 11:43*am, oriel36 wrote:
It is hard to imagine why people in this era of great technological
advancement would choose to betray the intricate structure we inherit
from the great astronomers in antiquity who fixed the 24 hour day and
later that value to *daily rotation through 360 degrees,who took these
daily cycles and rotations and determined 365 1/4 rotations for an
annual/orbital circuit and then to craft the structure of a leap day
in order to maintain a steady progression of 24 hour days into a
steady progression of years using these days.Who would marvel at the
6 hour orbital drift through Mar 1st from year to year with the 1461
st rotation of Feb 29th that brings the rotations back in sync
corresponding to 4 cycles of 365 1/4 rotations.

That's fine, but only WITH RESPECT TO THE SUN, no problem.

You literally have to be a monster to reject this system...

And, you would have to be a complete Idiot to reject the easily
measureable sidereal day.

“Human beings, like plants, grow in the soil of acceptance, not in the
atmosphere of rejection”
- John Powell

On Oct 5, 12:43*pm, oriel36 wrote:

You literally have to be a monster to reject this system even if
nobody has to be held accountable for the error that introduced an
alternative value for rotation through 360 degrees and subsequently an
alternative and nonsensical amount of rotations in an orbital
circuit,it is not something where it is possible to excuse yourself or
hide from and who would want to ?

I am not rejecting the system of the calendar when I say it makes more
sense to speak of the period of circumpolar stellar rotation as the
rotation of the Earth.

The day is the product of both orbital revolutions and the Earth's
rotation. So since these two motions are added to make the solar day,
it makes sense that the length of the solar day will differ from the
period of rotation, since an orbital revolution also involves motion.

Yes, those whose calculations gave us an accurate calendar deserve
praise. Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler all deserve praise as well.
But so does Newton. It is only your confusion that prevents you from
seeing this.

John Savard

On Oct 5, 9:26*pm, palsing wrote:
On Oct 5, 11:43*am, oriel36 wrote:

It is hard to imagine why people in this era of great technological
advancement would choose to betray the intricate structure we inherit
from the great astronomers in antiquity who fixed the 24 hour day and
later that value to *daily rotation through 360 degrees,who took these
daily cycles and rotations and determined 365 1/4 rotations for an
annual/orbital circuit and then to craft the structure of a leap day
in order to maintain a steady progression of 24 hour days into a
steady progression of years using these days.Who would marvel at the
6 hour orbital drift through Mar 1st from year to year with the 1461
st rotation of Feb 29th that brings the rotations back in sync
corresponding to 4 cycles of 365 1/4 rotations.

That's fine, but only WITH RESPECT TO THE SUN, no problem.


No race of people have ever behaved like this,there is no parallel for
the assault on some of the easiest to understand astronomical
achievements such as the purpose of a leap day so unless you happen to
be the most boring people on the planet,there is no way to account for
the pure hostility as it requires nothing more than arithmetic.

A sane person,at least one who can count,never experiences any more
than 365 full rotations over a full orbital circuit insofar as the
average 24 hour day corresponding to the average length of one
rotation to natural noon,determines the orbital circuit as 365 days 5
hours 49 minutes,nothing more than what Huygens repeats here -

"Here take notice, that the Sun or the Earth passeth the 12. Signes,
or makes an entire revolution in the Ecliptick in 365 days, 5 hours 49
min. or there about, and that those days, reckon'd from noon to noon,
are of different lenghts; as is known to all that are vers'd in
Astronomy. Now between the longest and the shortest of those days, a
day may be taken of such a length, as 365 such days, 5. hours &c. (the
same numbers as before) make up, or are equall to that revolution: And
this is call'd the Equal or Mean day" Huygens

During the current cycle, for explain what a leap day does,daily and
orbital motion began in sync on Mar 1st 2008 with the orbital cycle
drifting forward on Mar 1st of each non-leap year in increments of 6
hours from year to year.On Mar 1st 6 AM 2009,the first circuit was
completed where the next began and ended at noon this year with the
next cycle of 365 1/4 rotations ending 6 PM 2011.After 3 non-leap
years,the orbital circuit has drifted by 18 hours ahead of the average
rotations so that a Feb 29th leap day rotation of 24 hours squares
away 6 hours to complete 4 orbital circuits of 365 1/4 day rotations
and 1461 rotations across Mar 1st 2008 and Feb 29th 2012 where the
next cycle begins.



You literally have to be a monster to reject this system...

And, you would have to be a complete Idiot to reject the easily
measureable sidereal day.


At this scale, where one 24 hour rotation on Feb 29th completes 1461
rotations and it is rejected can only mean some sort of monstrous
personality because it means rejecting the system which corresponds
365 1/4 rotations for an annual cycle.

This is the darkest period in human intellectual history by any
standard and cursed be those who are silent on this assault on human
achievement should they know what the problem is and why it needs to
be dealt with.As for you,well your excused as a nuisance.



“Human beings, like plants, grow in the soil of acceptance, not in the
atmosphere of rejection”
- John Powell

On Oct 5, 1:40*pm, oriel36 wrote:

A sane person,at least one who can count,never experiences any more
than 365 full rotations over a full orbital circuit...

No, that's not quite right... it should read like this; "A sane
person, at least one who can count, never experiences any more than
365 full daylight/darkness cycles over a full orbital circuit..."

There is a difference between a daylight/darkness cycle and a
rotation... but you already know that, don't you? So, why do you
pretend to be as stupid as a block wall?

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its
limits."
- Albert Einstein

\Paul A

On Oct 5, 8:24*pm, palsing wrote:
On Oct 5, 1:40*pm, oriel36 wrote:

A sane person,at least one who can count,never experiences any more
than 365 full rotations over a full orbital circuit...

No, that's not quite right... it should read like this; "A sane
person, at least one who can count, never experiences any more than
365 full daylight/darkness cycles over a full orbital circuit..."

There is a difference between a daylight/darkness cycle and a
rotation... but you already know that, don't you? So, why do you
pretend to be as stupid as a block wall?

He should at least be prepared to admit that there _may_ be a
difference between a daylight/darkness cycle and a rotation.

John Savard

On Oct 6, 3:24*am, palsing wrote:
On Oct 5, 1:40*pm, oriel36 wrote:

A sane person,at least one who can count,never experiences any more
than 365 full rotations over a full orbital circuit...

No, that's not quite right... it should read like this; "A sane
person, at least one who can count, never experiences any more than
365 full daylight/darkness cycles over a full orbital circuit..."

There is a difference between a daylight/darkness cycle and a
rotation...

It is inevitable that you would eventually say this insofar as in the
envisioned nightmare world of Orwell where blind consensus rules and
eventually claims 2+2= 5,the logic and arithmetic of 'sidereal time'
reasoning demands the correspondence between the daylight/darkness
cycle and the rotational cycle be dropped -

"In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and
you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make
that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it.
Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of
external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy
of heresies was common sense." Orwell

That is as close to your language as I will go as the correct
arguments which include the Earth's two daylight/darkness cycles which
in combination are responsible for both the seasons and variations in
the natural noon cycles by virtue of their dynamics and their
respective ways of turning to the central Sun is a million miles away
from that open grave which is 'sidereal time' reasoning and the people
who support it.

So,the 24 hour leap day rotation and daylight/darkness cycle is the
key to both the 24 hour day/daily rotation and the number of rotations
that constitute an orbital cycle,that this forum full of people
considering themselves astronomers have failed at this level is quite
an amazing sight.Even I can't see where this goes from here but
whereas you are excused by making the claim that rotation and the
daylight/darkness cycle are not the same thing,you can be comforted
that this consensual belief is a consequence of something that is
indoctrinated rather than thought through as an individual.My
indignation is therefore justified by virtue of love of what the great
astronomers once achieved and not by any opposition to the dominance
of this empirical monster which destroys everything it touches.





but you already know that, don't you? So, why do you
pretend to be as stupid as a block wall?

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its
limits."
- Albert Einstein

\Paul A

On 06/10/2010 04:06, Quadibloc wrote:
On Oct 5, 8:24 pm, wrote:
On Oct 5, 1:40 pm, wrote:

A sane person,at least one who can count,never experiences any more
than 365 full rotations over a full orbital circuit...

No, that's not quite right... it should read like this; "A sane
person, at least one who can count, never experiences any more than
365 full daylight/darkness cycles over a full orbital circuit..."

There is a difference between a daylight/darkness cycle and a
rotation... but you already know that, don't you? So, why do you
pretend to be as stupid as a block wall?

He should at least be prepared to admit that there _may_ be a
difference between a daylight/darkness cycle and a rotation.

Apart from being a delusional nutter who cannot be reasoned with and
should by now be kill filed. Kelleher fails to understand that the Earth
going round the sun accounts for the difference he objects to.

It is very much like the hands on an analogue clock problem. There are
twelve hours in the day which the hour hand moves round, but the clock
hands only pass over each other 11 times in a day at 0:00 1:05, 2:10,
3:15 etc. It is a fence post error in what passes for his "reasoning".

Give it up you will never convince him.

Regards,
Martin Brown

On Oct 6, 8:43*am, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 06/10/2010 04:06, Quadibloc wrote:









On Oct 5, 8:24 pm, *wrote:
On Oct 5, 1:40 pm, *wrote:

A sane person,at least one who can count,never experiences any more
than 365 full rotations over a full orbital circuit...

No, that's not quite right... it should read like this; "A sane
person, at least one who can count, never experiences any more than
365 full daylight/darkness cycles over a full orbital circuit..."

There is a difference between a daylight/darkness cycle and a
rotation... but you already know that, don't you? So, why do you
pretend to be as stupid as a block wall?

He should at least be prepared to admit that there _may_ be a
difference between a daylight/darkness cycle and a rotation.

Apart from being a delusional nutter who cannot be reasoned with and
should by now be kill filed. Kelleher fails to understand that the Earth
going round the sun accounts for the difference he objects to.


There are 365 days from Mar 1st 2010 until Feb 28th 2011 and every day
a star will return to the same spot 3 minutes 56 seconds earlier than
the day before, there will be 366 days from Mar 1st 2011 until Feb
29th 2012 and every day a star will still return to the same spot 3
minutes 56 seconds earlier.It means you are lying to yourselves,the
return of a star using 'sidereal time' reasoning is based on the equal
24 hour day within the 365/366 day calendar system.

There are 365 AM and PM designations in non-leap years and 366 in the
year Mar 1st 2011 until Feb 29th 2012 signifying that rotation is
locked in to natural noon with the variations in the length,I
repeat,the entire length of natural noon averaged to 24 hours,no
wandering Sun,no 'sidereal vs solar' junk,just a simple observation
that averages to 24 hours -

"Draw a Meridian line upon a floor and then hang two plummets, each
by a small thred or wire, directly over the said Meridian, at the
distance of some 2. feet or more one from the other, as the smalness
of the thred will admit. When the middle of the Sun (the Eye being
placed so, as to bring both the threds into one line) appears to be in
the same line exactly you are then immediately to set the Watch, not
precisely to the hour of 12. but by so much less, as is the Aequation
of the day by the Table." Huygens


It is very much like the hands on an analogue clock problem. There are
twelve hours in the day which the hour hand moves round, but the clock
hands only pass over each other 11 times in a day at 0:00 1:05, 2:10,
3:15 etc. It is a fence post error in what passes for his "reasoning".


The Feb 29th leap day rotation accounts for the drifting of the
orbital cycles by increments of 6 hours through Mar 1st from year on
year ,in this current year,what began at 12 noon ends at 6 PM on Mar
1st 2011.You 'sidereal time' freaks are trying to account for an
orbital drift through stellar circumpolar motion every day ,it is much
easier to understand what a 24 hour leap day rotation in rounding off
1461 rotations constituting 365 1/4 rotations per orbital circuit.



Give it up you will never convince him.

Regards,
Martin Brown

I do not convince people who can lie to themselves to such an extent
that they will sacrifice arithmetic or the correspondence between the
daylight/darkness cycle and daily rotation in order to maintain their
'sidereal time' indoctrination,I can appeal to those who can take a
wider view of the matter and arrive at conclusions which then can be
passed on to students.

On Oct 6, 3:39*am, oriel36 wrote:

There are 365 days from Mar 1st 2010 until Feb 28th 2011 and every day
a star will return to the same spot 3 minutes 56 seconds earlier than
the day before, there will be 366 days from Mar 1st 2011 until Feb
29th 2012 and every day a star will still return to the same spot 3
minutes 56 seconds earlier.

Yes, that's true. There's no sudden jump once a year. We don't expect
there to be one, and we think the lack of one shows that "sidereal
time" is valid for the purposes we use it for.

It means you are lying to yourselves,the
return of a star using 'sidereal time' reasoning is based on the equal
24 hour day within the 365/366 day calendar system.

We dispute your use of the term "based on". Only the size of the unit
of time is determined by the averaging of the solar day.

There are 365 AM and PM designations in non-leap years and 366 in the
year Mar 1st 2011 until Feb 29th 2012 signifying that rotation is
locked in to natural noon with the variations in the length,

I don't even claim to understand what that means. Our clocks are
locked in to natural noon, despite the variations in length due to the
Equation of Time, because we want to sleep when it's dark.

You 'sidereal time' freaks are trying to account for an
orbital drift through stellar circumpolar motion every day ,it is much
easier to understand what a 24 hour leap day rotation in rounding off
1461 rotations constituting 365 1/4 rotations per orbital circuit.

It certainly is true that we don't need "sidereal time" to account for
leap years. The length of the year in solar days is all we need, and
stellar circumpolar motion doesn't enter into it at all.

The only reason we're talking about leap years is that you brought
them up. You're the one who somehow claims that leap years mean that
the sidereal day can't be the period of the Earth's rotation. As far
as we're concerned, there is no real connection between the two.

What "sidereal time" helps us to understand is the Equation of Time,
by letting us separate the rotation of the Earth from the daylight/
darkness cycle _subtracted_ by the Earth's annual orbital motion.

Since the number of daylight/darkness cycles in a year is 365 plus an
odd fraction, and this number is the number of rotations minus one due
to the Earth's orbital motion, the number of rotations of the Earth
and stellar circumpolar motions in a year is 366 plus an odd fraction.
***So what?***

John Savard