Goto Nixed for Club by AAVSO Oldtimer

GOTO, and DSC's are the BEST thing that has
happened to astronomy IMHO...etc.

My post had two points: (1) This isn't the first time old-timers expressed
disdain for newcomers; (2) Even though I emphatically believe in the value
of learning the night sky (how can one say they like astronomy and yet not
give a @#$% where Arcturus is?), the goto people are also part of astronomy,
and they're welcome in our club.

But I wouldn't say this is the "best thing" to happen to astronomy. These
people come to a star party or two, spend a couple of evenings trying to
figure out how to use their scopes, and then drift away because it's too
much work just to see a couple of planets and M13. The basis for long-term
interest isn't there.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W

On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 03:52:08 GMT, "Curtis Croulet"
wrote:

(how can one say they like astronomy and yet not
give a @#$% where Arcturus is?)

Easily. I do know because of an inevitable osmosis after years of
practical astronomy, but really, I don't care much.

But I wouldn't say this is the "best thing" to happen to astronomy. These
people come to a star party or two, spend a couple of evenings trying to
figure out how to use their scopes, and then drift away because it's too
much work just to see a couple of planets and M13. The basis for long-term
interest isn't there.

I don't know. I got serious about astronomy in the early 1970s, and
started with goto. I haven't drifted away. Back in the old days people
were as likely to move on to other hobbies when they discovered the
investment required to learn the sky. Access is easier now, so a lot
more people test the waters of astronomy. Obviously, in terms of
absolute numbers, more abandon it as well.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

wsnell01 posted:

IIRC, some years ago, the Astronomical League decided to disallow the
use of digital setting circles for those seeking a Messier Club
certificate. The AL undoubtedly felt that using DSCs to find the M-
objects was diminishing the value and prestige for those who were
earning the certificates the old-fashioned way.

No, they did not disallow the use of setting circles. They merely state
(for the Messier Award):

"Since the purpose of the Messier Club is to familiarize the observer
with the nature and location of the objects in the sky, the use of an
automated telescope which finds the objects without effort on the part
of the observer is not acceptable."

In other words, "GoTo" is not allowed, but both digital and analog
setting circles are OK to use (as well as star hopping). However, there
are a number of League observing clubs where GoTo *may* be used. From
the web page:

"Those observing clubs, listed below, that are valid to use computerized
GOTO systems on include: Arp Peculiar Galaxy Club, Asteroid Observing
Club, Double Star Club, Galaxy Groups & Clusters Club, Globular Cluster
Club, Herschel 400 Club, Herschel II Club, Open Cluster Club , Planetary
Nebula Club, Planetary Observers Club, Southern Sky Telescopic Club and
Urban Observing Club. Although you CAN use a GOTO system on these
programs, it is highly recommended that manual methods be used. For any
program not listed in this paragraph, one must use manual methods to
complete the program."

Actually, the whole thing is on the honor system anyway, so one could
conceivably lie about it and just submit their log and get the award.
However, that does defeat the purpose of these observing clubs, which is
to get out and actually observe some of the more prominent objects in
the sky. Clear skies to you..
--
David W. Knisely
Prairie Astronomy Club: http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
Hyde Memorial Observatory: http://www.hydeobservatory.info/

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* "Lose Your Heart to the Stars!" *
* Attend the 15th Annual NEBRASKA STAR PARTY *
* July 27- Aug. 1, 2008, Merritt Reservoir *
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I don't know. I got serious about astronomy in the early 1970s, and
started with goto.

Goto in the 1970s?
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W

Curtis Croulet wrote:

My post had two points: (1) This isn't the first time old-timers expressed
disdain for newcomers; (2) Even though I emphatically believe in the value
of learning the night sky (how can one say they like astronomy and yet not
give a @#$% where Arcturus is?), the goto people are also part of astronomy,
and they're welcome in our club.

But I wouldn't say this is the "best thing" to happen to astronomy. These
people come to a star party or two, spend a couple of evenings trying to
figure out how to use their scopes, and then drift away because it's too
much work just to see a couple of planets and M13. The basis for long-term
interest isn't there.

Hi, Curtis and all.

Maybe when people have this kind of problem at a star party with a go-to scope,
we have a nice illustration of why the Chinese character representing "crisis"
can also mean "opportunity."

Currently I'm involved with a mentoring program with my local club, with star
parties as one fine place to help new telescope users who may be having
problems getting started. This is just the situation where such mentoring
could help make the difference between a new user quickly giving up on the
hobby or learning the fun of go-to as an _optional_ feature which doesn't
preclude manual navigation and starhopping.

If someone is interested in M13, of course, this is a fine opportunity to
show them the Keystone asterism, and let them see that they have the choice
of starhopping manually -- not that it's the only choice, but that it can
be a fun and handy choice sometimes even if the go-to is functioning
smoothly.

One could also share with them a monthly star map of the kind freely
available on the Internet, and maybe a handout giving URL's for some
resources of this kind as well as star atlases and the like. How about
a "Welcome to Astronomy Tour" of a few celestial attractions, fitting
the season: for example, M13, M31, NGC 253, and some other deep-sky
treasures?

Might some of the stars used for go-to setup be located near
attractive DSO's? If so, learning how to set up the go-to and
having some fun starhopping could nicely dovetail.

Please let me emphasize that I _don't_ want to have mentoring
taken for granted: it's an effort which should be appreciated
on all sides. However, I suspect that many a perplexed new
telescope owner would be immensely responsive and grateful
when offered a bit of friendly help either in setting up
the go-to or in discovering the option of starhopping.

Most appreciatively,

Margo Schulter

Lat. 38.566 Long. -121.430

wrote:

"I remember when...cough, cough." Old people are KILLING the
hobby.

DAMN! All this time I thought it was light pollution.
Guess I need to refocus my attention on getting old
people to take up other interests.

You're right to note that light pollution is a more important problem
- and to criticize the perceived exclusionary generalization in the
previous post.

However, just as excluding everyone who is old is a bad thing, so is
excluding people who find go-to telescopes helpful, and _some_ amateur
astronomers, not all of them elderly, are tending to do that.


IIRC, some years ago, the Astronomical League decided to disallow the
use of digital setting circles for those seeking a Messier Club
certificate. The AL undoubtedly felt that using DSCs to find the M-
objects was diminishing the value and prestige for those who were
earning the certificates the old-fashioned way.

That makes sense on several counts not to mention the fact AL
can do whatever it wants with "its" policies. I happen to agree
with them, being an Old Timer. The search and find is part of
the learning to achieve experience.

For for anyone to dominate and "control" a club most of who want
the goto capability, for ease of program presentation and public viewing,
and member projects where goto would be a real asset
to carrying out lengthy survey projects - such denial is just plain
wrong ....... especially when club members raise the money to
provide the scope for the club and the Luddite still seeks to stomp
his feet and scream NO! The old fart should be hauled off to his observatory
and locked inside with his AAVSO certificates!

A modern club that doesnt have goto capability in my estimation
is missing a real asset as well as a treat, if it can afford it. To
actually deny people that asset on trumped up grounds is really
the mark of a club in trouble.

I smell somebody in that club protecting HIS territory - not acting
in the club's interests. I venture to say that guy has his club hostage
for some reason.

Old Fart.

Margo Schulter wrote:
Maybe when people have this kind of problem at a star party with a
go-to scope, we have a nice illustration of why the Chinese character
representing "crisis" can also mean "opportunity."

Minor nitpick: At least in modern Chinese, the words I can think of that
represent those two English words are both two characters, that share
one character in common. "Crisis" is weiji, and "opportunity" is jihui.
The character they share in common is ji, which just on its own doesn't
have a particularly well-defined meaning. (There are, as many of you
will know, a boatload of characters with the pronunciation ji, or even
with the pronunciation ji(1), with the level tone.)

Maybe in classical Chinese, or in another dialect, there is a single
character for both senses.

I emphasize that I have no substantive argument with your point. I'm
just curious where you heard this, or if you know Chinese natively, what
character you have in mind.

--
Brian Tung
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

On Oct 8, 1:07 am, David Knisely wrote:
wsnell01 posted:

IIRC, some years ago, the Astronomical League decided to disallow the
use of digital setting circles for those seeking a Messier Club
certificate. The AL undoubtedly felt that using DSCs to find the M-
objects was diminishing the value and prestige for those who were
earning the certificates the old-fashioned way.

No, they did not disallow the use of setting circles. They merely state
(for the Messier Award):

"Since the purpose of the Messier Club is to familiarize the observer
with the nature and location of the objects in the sky, the use of an
automated telescope which finds the objects without effort on the part
of the observer is not acceptable."

In other words, "GoTo" is not allowed, but both digital and analog
setting circles are OK to use (as well as star hopping). However, there
are a number of League observing clubs where GoTo *may* be used. From
the web page:

A bit of "Googling" yielded this:

http://www.astroleague.org/al/astrnote/astnot12.html

If you go there you will find that the fourth sentence of the Messier
blurb reads:

"Computer controlled telescopes and digital setting circles are not
allowed in this program whose purpose is to teach you to learn your
way around the night sky."

This is essentially what I recalled reading somewhere about a decade
or so ago.

Whereas "setting circles" of the old fashioned type existed long
before the AL Messier Club, they were typically so difficult to use
that anyone who did use them successfully deserved not just a
certificate and a pin, but a trophy and maybe a parade. Digital
setting circles were a different matter...they actually worked.

While other AL Clubs don't specifically forbid DSCs and GOTO, I
suspect that someone could cheat a bit by attaching binoculars to a
GOTO scope and using that setup for a "Binocular Messier Club" award.
(I would imagine that, like the Messier Club, the BMC has the same
general goal of "learn your way around the night sky" even if not
specifically stated.)

Brian Tung wrote:
Margo Schulter wrote:
Maybe when people have this kind of problem at a star party with a
go-to scope, we have a nice illustration of why the Chinese character
representing "crisis" can also mean "opportunity."

I emphasize that I have no substantive argument with your point. I'm
just curious where you heard this, or if you know Chinese natively, what
character you have in mind.

The claim that the chinese character which stands for "crisis"
combines elements that stand for "danger" and "opportunity" has
appeared in popular literature many times. It probably was first
presented by someone engaged in giving financial advice.

It has been debunked - scholars in the Chinese language have shown
this is a popular misconception.

But the Mandarin word for danger is weixian, and so the word crisis
does consist of, as two separate characters, the wei in weixian, and
the ji in jihui. In classical Chinese, the first character of a two-
syllable word's representation in baihua usually stands for the whole
word. So that the "wei" character means danger on its own, and the
"ji" character means opportunity on its own, is probably true enough.

The thing is, of course, that the "ji" in weiji is there for its
pronounciation, and not its meaning. And, thus, books like "You Can
Profit from a Monetary Crisis" are not really derived from ancient
Chinese wisdom.

John Savard

Quadibloc wrote:
It has been debunked - scholars in the Chinese language have shown
this is a popular misconception.

And, since you've expressed an interest in the details, here's the
famous essay that did the debunking:

http://www.pinyin.info/chinese/crisis.html

John Savard