What's wrong with there being ETs (smarter than us none the less)

BradGuth wrote:
On Jun 22, 6:24 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
BradGuth wrote:
On Jun 22, 4:42 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
BradGuth wrote:
Which laws of physics forbids other intelligent life?
What sort of evolution is strictly terrestrial limited?
What sort of planet/moon extremes are totally insurmountable for
having accommodated intelligent life?
-
"whoever controls the past, controls the future" / George Orwell
-
Brad Guth
On the "smarter than us" part of the subject line, it's worth
remembering that intelligence doesn't appear to arise as a natural
progression in the scheme of things, but as a respose to environmental
stress. You evolve to be intelligent enough to survive - because the
others don't survive and don't reproduce. When times get easier, you may
keep your intelligence. The human race appears to have got its
intelligence in a time of drought, but almost got wiped out in the process.
Then most of the extremely complex and obviously robust life other
than humans on this Earth is simply a whole lot smarter about their
having survived than of us village idiots, as most other life having
survived for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years without
their having gone postal over any sort of faith-based bigotry, greed
or arrogance applied against their own kind, like we humans so often
needed to accomplish in order to have survived thus far, and with not
very long to go I might as well add.
So ET maybe somewhat more intelligent than we are. But much more so? Not
so clear that that would happen.
Substract just one stupid war from our modern day survival process,
and as such how many global trillions of hard earned loot and valuable
time would we as an intelligent species be ahead of the game?
If ETs started out just half as bigoted, greedy and arrogant as us
humans, as such they could be thousands of years more advanced than
us, and for way better reasons at that.
There's no doubt that we could be more technologically advanced than we
are, but technological advancement is not a measure of intelligence -
intelligence can remain the same even as techology is advancing.

Sylvia

Double duh! What the freaking hell are you saying?

I'm pointing out that there's a difference between intelligence and
techological advancement. There's also a difference between intelligence
and wisdom, if it comes to that.


By way of being w/o faith-based wars and thus easily a good thousand
years more advanced and trillions upon trillions of hard earned loot
in the black is in fact extremely intelligent. Obviously there's
nothing on Earth that comes close to being that intelligent, unless
it's of something ET that snuck itself in the back or side door.

You think that not participating in wars is a sign of intelligence?

What is an intelligent being to do when confronted by attack by a less
intelligent one?

It would be nice if everyone liked everyone else, and wars didn't
happen. Sadly, the world doesn't work that way, and the best that
intelligence has to offer is the opportunity to be on the wining
(defined loosely) side.


I tend to agree that whatever degree of applied technology gets
noticed isn't in of itself a rating of intelligence, because that
technology could have been simply shared or taken from others.
Intelligent ETs do not have to be space traveling village idiots and/
or the sort of dumbfounded morons like us, and they certainly don't
have to have any form of inefficient RF/microwave communications in
order to be extremely intelligent.

No, that's not the main reason it's not a rating of intelligence. The
main reason is that given an adequate level of intelligence, technology
progresses with time. Do you imagine that 21st humans are more
intelligent that those who put up the pyramids? Look at the number of
people who can't program their VCRs and tell me you believe that's true.


Surviving is the ultimate form or interpretation of DNA/RNA
intelligence. Not surviving or otherwise allowing the demise of your
own kind is the exact opposite.

Other than the survival intelligence of DNA/RNA, what forms of other
intelligent life are you speaking about?

There are extremely complex and thus weird if not ET forms of life
existing/coexisting right here on Earth, that hasn't changed or
otherwise evolved for millions of years, that obviously has been more
survival intelligent than us humans that are pretty much doing all
that we can to trash mother Earth as we continually exterminate one
another, as so often being faith-based driven upon greed, arrogance
and butt loads of our bigotry that's more often dumbfounded (aka
cultivated) by the mainstream status quo than not, and it's usually
because of folks exactly like yourself that will not honestly share
anything unless there's something better in doing so for yourself.

Why don't you silly folks tell us whatever your obvious faith-based
idea of intelligence is?

Is having put one of your own kind on a stick being intelligent?

Is having picked the wrong warlord for the third or forth time,
intelligent?

Is the allowing of others to accomplish your dirty work, so that
you'll eventually benefit from the collateral damage and demise of
others, the intelligent thing to be doing?

Is the tactic of topic/author stalking, bashings and/or banishment,
along with excluding whatever evidence rocks your boat your idea of
being intelligent?

I'll offer a list of what's intelligent, and of what's not. How about
yourself?
-
Brad Guth


You seem to be trying an argument from adverse consequences, along the
lines of "If humans were highly intelligent, we wouldn't be in the
situation we're in now. We are in the situation we're in now, therefore
humans are not higly intelligent."

I trust you can see the hole in that reasoning.

Sylvia.

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 21:57:46 +1000, in a place far, far away, Sylvia
Else made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

BradGuth wrote:

You seem to be trying an argument from adverse consequences, along the
lines of "If humans were highly intelligent, we wouldn't be in the
situation we're in now. We are in the situation we're in now, therefore
humans are not higly intelligent."

I trust you can see the hole in that reasoning.

No, he can't. Guth is mentally ill. Please don't respond to him, it
only encourages him.

On Jun 22, 8:04 am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Ian Parker wrote:

:
:You have not made a contribution. You have simply called names.
:Typical of you.
:

You have not made a contribution. You have simply spewed loony.
Typical of you.

But that's what Zions as rusemasters do best.

If Earth is as good as this universe gets, and if we're as smart as
ETs are ever going to get, than God or whatever intelligent design
effort screwed up really bad.
-
Brad Guth

No we are not more intelligent - not in the genetic sense. Our
civilization is more "intelligent" than any in the past.

1) When I was doing my PhD I used to spend hours in the library
searching references. With Google I can get all the information I want
in a matter of minutes. I hope that the academic world will see fit to
put all its publications on line. If it does so I feel that science
will advance just that little bit faster.

2) We can train more scientifically. Modern athletes would beat the
ancients simply for this reason. Modern civilization has allowed us to
concentrate on simply becoming more intelligent. We no longer need to
do heavy manual labor to get the harvest in.

In science fiction you have a malevolent evil genius. In real life it
is stupid people that are the main threat. Militant Islamists,
Racists, virulent nationalists of all descriptions.

I feel the challenge for us all is to try to make people think and
confront the basis of their irrationalities. This is surely the only
hope for humanity.


- Ian Parker

On Jun 23, 4:57 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
I'm pointing out that there's a difference between intelligence and
techological advancement. There's also a difference between intelligence
and wisdom, if it comes to that.

Point away. Where's your list?

Brad Guth:
By way of being w/o faith-based wars and thus easily a good thousand
years more advanced and trillions upon trillions of hard earned loot
in the black is in fact extremely intelligent. Obviously there's
nothing on Earth that comes close to being that intelligent, unless
it's of something ET that snuck itself in the back or side door.

You think that not participating in wars is a sign of intelligence?

Perpetrating wars, as you Zion folks have clearly done, is not in the
best interest of advancing any sort of intelligence.


What is an intelligent being to do when confronted by attack by a less
intelligent one?

Stop provoking others. It works most every time.


It would be nice if everyone liked everyone else, and wars didn't
happen. Sadly, the world doesn't work that way, and the best that
intelligence has to offer is the opportunity to be on the wining
(defined loosely) side.

You folks tried hooking up with those Romans, then Hitler, and it
simply didn't work, did it. Now you're trying to stay hooked up with
our resident LLPOF warlord(GW Bush). Is it working or otherwise worth
all the collateral damage and carnage of the innocent? Is it worth
all the trillions upon trillions it's costing this world?


Brad Guth:
I tend to agree that whatever degree of applied technology gets
noticed isn't in of itself a rating of intelligence, because that
technology could have been simply shared or taken from others.
Intelligent ETs do not have to be space traveling village idiots and/
or the sort of dumbfounded morons like us, and they certainly don't
have to have any form of inefficient RF/microwave communications in
order to be extremely intelligent.

No, that's not the main reason it's not a rating of intelligence. The
main reason is that given an adequate level of intelligence, technology
progresses with time. Do you imagine that 21st humans are more
intelligent that those who put up the pyramids? Look at the number of
people who can't program their VCRs and tell me you believe that's true.

What do you mean "no"?

Why are your Zion words of mostly naysayism any better than mine?

Time means almost nothing if there's intelligent design (meaning smart
ETs) pulling a few of those evolution expediting strings, or perhaps
even the random happenstance of ETs getting placed and/or stuck on
Earth might rather easily jump a good number of generations past go.

I'd just stipulated that applied technology has almost nothing to do
with intelligence, because if your species or tribe is dead it means
that you obviously weren't intelligent enough. Clearly the biological
diversity of Earth's populations are based extensively upon lies,
because we locals were simply not all that intelligent to begin with.

Can you be too smart for your own good? (I happen think so)

Obviously yourself and others of your silly kind are a very
terrestrial collective of borg like souls, thus anything off-world
doesn't count. No wonder you've been ignoring Venus and all that's
represented by the indications of intelligent other life existing/
coexisting on that hot rock.


Brad Guth:
Surviving is the ultimate form or interpretation of DNA/RNA
intelligence. Not surviving or otherwise allowing the demise of your
own kind is the exact opposite.

Other than the survival intelligence of DNA/RNA, what forms of other
intelligent life are you speaking about?

There are extremely complex and thus weird if not ET forms of life
existing/coexisting right here on Earth, that hasn't changed or
otherwise evolved for millions of years, that obviously has been more
survival intelligent than us humans that are pretty much doing all
that we can to trash mother Earth as we continually exterminate one
another, as so often being faith-based driven upon greed, arrogance
and butt loads of our bigotry that's more often dumbfounded (aka
cultivated) by the mainstream status quo than not, and it's usually
because of folks exactly like yourself that will not honestly share
anything unless there's something better in doing so for yourself.

Why don't you silly folks tell us whatever your obvious faith-based
idea of intelligence is?

Is having put one of your own kind on a stick being intelligent?

Is having picked the wrong warlord for the third or forth time,
intelligent?

Is the allowing of others to accomplish your dirty work, so that
you'll eventually benefit from the collateral damage and demise of
others, the intelligent thing to be doing?

Is the tactic of topic/author stalking, bashings and/or banishment,
along with excluding whatever evidence rocks your boat your idea of
being intelligent?

I'll offer a list of what's intelligent, and of what's not. How about
yourself?
-
Brad Guth

You seem to be trying an argument from adverse consequences, along the
lines of "If humans were highly intelligent, we wouldn't be in the
situation we're in now. We are in the situation we're in now, therefore
humans are not higly intelligent."

I trust you can see the hole in that reasoning.

I agree, that because we humans are far from intelligent and otherwise
too busy at killing off one another over fossil and yellowcake
reserves, is exactly why as a given species we're going to die out, as
we should.

ETs of greater intelligence will not have died out, just as it should
be.

Too bad the Zion and even Catholic formulated mindset of humanity is
so stuck within their mutual faith-based ruts.

Obviously you have no actual list of what's intelligent, or otherwise
a list of what isn't intelligent. Within your koran or whatever Old
Testament, the past simply is not the truth, and within your mindset
that's exactly how it should be, as our future gets based upon such
lies of your past.
-
"whoever controls the past, controls the future" / George Orwell
-
Brad Guth

On Jun 23, 5:06 am, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 21:57:46 +1000, in a place far, far away, Sylvia
Else made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

BradGuth wrote:
You seem to be trying an argument from adverse consequences, along the
lines of "If humans were highly intelligent, we wouldn't be in the
situation we're in now. We are in the situation we're in now, therefore
humans are not higly intelligent."

I trust you can see the hole in that reasoning.

No, he can't. Guth is mentally ill. Please don't respond to him, it
only encourages him.

Your usual naysayism and all that's anti-ET is noted.

As per usual of your less than zero topic contribution. Go back to
mount Zion, where the likes of you war perpetrating folks belong.
-
Brad Guth

Oops, sorry about all that: Google error / Server Error
"The server encountered a temporary error and could not complete your
request."

It seems whenever I've posted to various topics (mostly those of my
own) that we get our Usenet land into deep crapolla with the lords and
rusemasters of those Old Testament thumping Zions and of their brown-
nosed Atheist minions in charge of all that's GOOGLE/NOVA.

ET intelligence (including us mere humans as having been sending our
probes out to other planets and moons) is not about our nifty gadgets
or personal stuff that's better off than whatever the next guy has to
play with.

Intelligence is about making the best of a given bad or good
situation, as somewhat making the best of or at least making due with
the local resources and talents at your disposal, rather than taking
from others or keeping others from getting any piece of the global
action.

We humans too often ignore and/or banish another idea or technological
method for personal or faith-based reasons, and than's not hardly all
that intelligent, is it. In fact, we're so freaking dumbfounded past
the point of no return that we can't even manage to properly utilize
our moon's L1, much less for establishing VL2 POOF City.

Whenever the truth is getting skewed or entirely excluded, the chances
of having to repeat the same mistakes over and over is insured. Thus
wars upon wars and the consequences of collateral damage along with
the carnage of the innocent continues, as though the past never
existed in the first place.

Each year worth of our mutually perpetrated cold-war was worth at
least a decade in technological set-back, plus another wasted trillion
in hard earned loot, whereas a decade of cold-war is thus having taken
or otherwise diverted a century worth of technological advancements
along with its loot and having lost whatever subsequent profits to
burn (sort of speak).

Instead of having proven how intelligent we had become, we've time and
again proven that being the biggest bully on the block is far more
important, and especially as aligned with the Zion mindset which seems
to have been the orchestrated past, present and future that we're
stuck with until hill freezes over, of which global warming is going
to make any notions of our hell freezing over unlikely, that is unless
we can manage to get rid of our pesky moon that keeping our 98.5%
fluid Earth in a continual flux of having to deal with internal,
surface and atmospheirc friction that's tidal forced upon us because
of having such a robust and nearby mascon of a moon.
-
"whoever controls the past, controls the future" / George Orwell
-
Brad Guth



On Jun 19, 8:14 am, BradGuth wrote:
Which laws of physics forbids other intelligent life?

What sort of evolution is strictly terrestrial limited?

What sort of planet/moon extremes are totally insurmountable for
having accommodated intelligent life?
-
"whoever controls the past, controls the future" / George Orwell
-BradGuth

"Ian Parker" wrote in message
ps.com...
: No we are not more intelligent - not in the genetic sense. Our
: civilization is more "intelligent" than any in the past.
:
: 1) When I was doing my PhD I used to spend hours in the library
: searching references. With Google I can get all the information I want
: in a matter of minutes. I hope that the academic world will see fit to
: put all its publications on line. If it does so I feel that science
: will advance just that little bit faster.


Since when did citing a list of references show any indication of
intelligence?
Where are the references in this student's pile of crap?
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/

What the moron did was retard science.

:
: 2) We can train more scientifically. Modern athletes would beat the
: ancients simply for this reason.

Non sequitur, and certainly unsubstantiated since it is impossible to
perform such a contest.


: Modern civilization has allowed us to
: concentrate on simply becoming more intelligent. We no longer need to
: do heavy manual labor to get the harvest in.


You confuse learning from a book with the ability to apply old knowledge to
new
situations. Certainly men such Leonardo da Vinci, Isaac Newton, Archimedes,
Euclid, Pythagoras, Shakespeare etc. etc. displayed far more intelligence
than Joe Sixpack with his modern beliefs in virgin births, holy ghosts and
time dilation.

:
: In science fiction you have a malevolent evil genius. In real life it
: is stupid people that are the main threat. Militant Islamists,
: Racists, virulent nationalists of all descriptions.

In ALL fiction extreme traits are predominant, not just sci-fi.
That's the very nature of fiction.


: I feel the challenge for us all is to try to make people think and
: confront the basis of their irrationalities. This is surely the only
: hope for humanity.

A sentiment I can agree with. Start with
"But the ray moves relatively to the initial point of k, when measured in
the stationary system, with the velocity c-v" as the man said and quit the
irrational
and pointless babbling about it being c in all inertial frames of reference.

"Sylvia Else" wrote in message
...
: BradGuth wrote:
: On Jun 22, 6:24 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
: BradGuth wrote:
: On Jun 22, 4:42 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
: BradGuth wrote:
: Which laws of physics forbids other intelligent life?
: What sort of evolution is strictly terrestrial limited?
: What sort of planet/moon extremes are totally insurmountable for
: having accommodated intelligent life?
: -
: "whoever controls the past, controls the future" / George Orwell
: -
: Brad Guth
: On the "smarter than us" part of the subject line, it's worth
: remembering that intelligence doesn't appear to arise as a natural
: progression in the scheme of things, but as a respose to
environmental
: stress. You evolve to be intelligent enough to survive - because the
: others don't survive and don't reproduce. When times get easier, you
may
: keep your intelligence. The human race appears to have got its
: intelligence in a time of drought, but almost got wiped out in the
process.
: Then most of the extremely complex and obviously robust life other
: than humans on this Earth is simply a whole lot smarter about their
: having survived than of us village idiots, as most other life having
: survived for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years without
: their having gone postal over any sort of faith-based bigotry, greed
: or arrogance applied against their own kind, like we humans so often
: needed to accomplish in order to have survived thus far, and with not
: very long to go I might as well add.
: So ET maybe somewhat more intelligent than we are. But much more so?
Not
: so clear that that would happen.
: Substract just one stupid war from our modern day survival process,
: and as such how many global trillions of hard earned loot and valuable
: time would we as an intelligent species be ahead of the game?
: If ETs started out just half as bigoted, greedy and arrogant as us
: humans, as such they could be thousands of years more advanced than
: us, and for way better reasons at that.
: There's no doubt that we could be more technologically advanced than we
: are, but technological advancement is not a measure of intelligence -
: intelligence can remain the same even as techology is advancing.
:
: Sylvia
:
: Double duh! What the freaking hell are you saying?
:
: I'm pointing out that there's a difference between intelligence and
: techological advancement. There's also a difference between intelligence
: and wisdom, if it comes to that.
:
:
: By way of being w/o faith-based wars and thus easily a good thousand
: years more advanced and trillions upon trillions of hard earned loot
: in the black is in fact extremely intelligent. Obviously there's
: nothing on Earth that comes close to being that intelligent, unless
: it's of something ET that snuck itself in the back or side door.
:
: You think that not participating in wars is a sign of intelligence?
:
: What is an intelligent being to do when confronted by attack by a less
: intelligent one?
:
: It would be nice if everyone liked everyone else, and wars didn't
: happen. Sadly, the world doesn't work that way, and the best that
: intelligence has to offer is the opportunity to be on the wining
: (defined loosely) side.
:
:
: I tend to agree that whatever degree of applied technology gets
: noticed isn't in of itself a rating of intelligence, because that
: technology could have been simply shared or taken from others.
: Intelligent ETs do not have to be space traveling village idiots and/
: or the sort of dumbfounded morons like us, and they certainly don't
: have to have any form of inefficient RF/microwave communications in
: order to be extremely intelligent.
:
: No, that's not the main reason it's not a rating of intelligence. The
: main reason is that given an adequate level of intelligence, technology
: progresses with time. Do you imagine that 21st humans are more
: intelligent that those who put up the pyramids? Look at the number of
: people who can't program their VCRs and tell me you believe that's true.
:
:
: Surviving is the ultimate form or interpretation of DNA/RNA
: intelligence. Not surviving or otherwise allowing the demise of your
: own kind is the exact opposite.
:
: Other than the survival intelligence of DNA/RNA, what forms of other
: intelligent life are you speaking about?
:
: There are extremely complex and thus weird if not ET forms of life
: existing/coexisting right here on Earth, that hasn't changed or
: otherwise evolved for millions of years, that obviously has been more
: survival intelligent than us humans that are pretty much doing all
: that we can to trash mother Earth as we continually exterminate one
: another, as so often being faith-based driven upon greed, arrogance
: and butt loads of our bigotry that's more often dumbfounded (aka
: cultivated) by the mainstream status quo than not, and it's usually
: because of folks exactly like yourself that will not honestly share
: anything unless there's something better in doing so for yourself.
:
: Why don't you silly folks tell us whatever your obvious faith-based
: idea of intelligence is?
:
: Is having put one of your own kind on a stick being intelligent?
:
: Is having picked the wrong warlord for the third or forth time,
: intelligent?
:
: Is the allowing of others to accomplish your dirty work, so that
: you'll eventually benefit from the collateral damage and demise of
: others, the intelligent thing to be doing?
:
: Is the tactic of topic/author stalking, bashings and/or banishment,
: along with excluding whatever evidence rocks your boat your idea of
: being intelligent?
:
: I'll offer a list of what's intelligent, and of what's not. How about
: yourself?
: -
: Brad Guth
:
:
: You seem to be trying an argument from adverse consequences, along the
: lines of "If humans were highly intelligent, we wouldn't be in the
: situation we're in now. We are in the situation we're in now, therefore
: humans are not higly intelligent."
:
: I trust you can see the hole in that reasoning.
:
: Sylvia.

I rather like that reasoning. Point out the hole in it, please.
Whilst humans as a species have employed intelligence
to place themselves at the top of the food chain and thereby
become successful relative to other species we still have done nothing
to defeat the Grim Reaper and prefer to mumble incantations and
caterwaul in churches as a solution to the problem we all face.
No way can such behaviour be classified as "intelligent".

Ian Parker wrote:

:
:2) We can train more scientifically. Modern athletes would beat the
:ancients simply for this reason. Modern civilization has allowed us to
:concentrate on simply becoming more intelligent. We no longer need to
:do heavy manual labor to get the harvest in.
:

You've obviously never worked a harvest crew. 'We' may no longer need
to do heavy manual labor to do that, but you can bet that SOMEONE is.

:
:I feel the challenge for us all is to try to make people think and
:confront the basis of their irrationalities. This is surely the only
:hope for humanity.
:

Well, I do keep trying to get you to think, but you keep declining to
do so in so many cases.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn