... The Solution to Global Warming Everyone Can Agree On!

"not-jonathan" wrote in message
...

Democracy and Freedom!


The best solution to climate change is found in
a world dominated
by proper and legitimate free market
democracies.



Impossible to have a solution to a non-existent
problem!
All we can do is adapt to any natural climate
variations.



Regards

Bonz0

"I care about the environment (I grew up in a
solar house) and think there are a dozen good
reasons why we should burn less fossil fuels,
but.global warming is not one of them."
Nir Shaviv, Israeli physicist 2009

On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:57:24 -0400, "not-jonathan"
wrote:


"o%nbo" wrote in message ...

"not-jonathan" wrote in message
...

Democracy and Freedom!


The best solution to climate change is found in a world dominated
by proper and legitimate free market democracies.



Impossible to have a solution to a non-existent problem!
All we can do is adapt to any natural climate variations.

I just don't think this question should be whether
warming is happening or not. The question should
be whether society should gain the ability to
manage the biosphere to the benefit of all?

I think is you scroll down to fig 1-5, the problem
becomes clear. Change is coming. Whether the current
rate of change prevents the next ice age, or set's
is off is the big question. Having the ability to manage
the biosphere should be useful for ...either...possibility.

"From this plot, it is clear that most of the last 420 thousand years
was spent in ice age. The brief periods when the record peaks
above the zero line, the interglacials, typically lasted from a few thousand
to perhaps twenty thousand years. These data should frighten you.
All of civilization developed during the last interglacial, and the data
show that such interglacials are very brief. Our time looks about up."
http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/IceAgeBo...f_climate.html


I don't know about this, but what is a gov lab
doing publishing such a frightening image at the
end of this page?

The lab must really be busy with research
to be able to publish online enough to get 2.7 million
hits on google.

While I agree that either warming is possible,
from whatever cause or randomness, the ice age
looks like the most likely possibility if the graph
showing a cooling drift over the last 900 years
before the recent warming data spike.

Having UHI mask a cooling plunge would
be really a disaster in the making, but maybe
nothing could prevent cooling if it is caused by
snow cover, even blowing black dust over the
snow fields might not be enough.


Maybe this will cause hanson to rethink
the problem. :-)

"not-jonathan" wrote in message
...

"o%nbo" wrote in message
...

"not-jonathan" wrote in
message
...

Democracy and Freedom!


The best solution to climate change is found
in a world dominated
by proper and legitimate free market
democracies.



Impossible to have a solution to a non-existent
problem!
All we can do is adapt to any natural climate
variations.

I just don't think this question should be
whether
warming is happening or not. The question should
be whether society should gain the ability to
manage the biosphere to the benefit of all?


I think Canute tried something like that without
success a few hundred years ago.
Some people never learn ...



Regards

Bonz0

"I care about the environment (I grew up in a
solar house) and think there are a dozen good
reasons why we should burn less fossil fuels,
but.global warming is not one of them."
Nir Shaviv, Israeli physicist 2009

On Oct 21, 7:26*pm, "not-jonathan" wrote:
Democracy and Freedom!

The best solution to climate change is found in a world dominated
by proper and legitimate free market democracies.

A global catastrophe is likely if the world finds itself dominated
by corrupt and incompetent dictatorships.

One form of society is highly adaptive, resilient to change and
has countless nested self correcting mechanisms. And 'change'
of almost any kind is considered an opportunity for a new market.
While dictatorships like China and others might just fuel *their
rapid industrialization with coal, and with few environmental
controls.

The collective ability of society to adapt to changes should
determine if our biosphere is headed for a new level of
stability, or some unpredictable calamity.

Imho. *Thank you for reading.

Jonathan

s

Jonathan, I'm a green socialist, as everybody knows, and I somewhat
disagree.

But let's suppose for argument's sake that you're correct. Well -
when is your GODDAMNED CAPITALIST SYSTEM actually going to show the
flexibility to fix the climate change problem?

Or excuse my French. My biases are showing.

When is your favorite flexible, adaptive "free market" economic
system actually going to take radical action to cease using fossil
fuels and start relying on renewable forms of energy?

It's one thing to CLAIM that free market democracies actually are
adaptive & wonderful and all.

It's another thing whether they actually deliver the goods.

As a half-baked student of Karl Marx, I strongly agree with you (and
with Marx) that capitalist economies excel at "revolutionizing the
instruments of production, and with them the relations of production,
and thereby relations of the whole society."

The history of capitalist industrialism to date has demonstrated that
the system repeatedly "revolutionizes the instruments of production"
and replaces older technologies with newer ones all the time.

So "free market democracies" COULD -- theoretically -- abandon their
old, environment-destroying industrial technologies and energy sources
(eg fossil fuels) and base their future prosperity on the development
and commercialization of new, environment-friendly, non-carbon energy
sources.

But ARE THEY ACTUALLY GOING TO DO IT?

Can American capitalism, in particular, actually enact meaningful
climate legislation without threatening thousands of coal miners &
auto mechanics & oil patch mayors with higher unemployment -- which
"free market" libertarians in the US insist that the government cannot
and should not try to relieve?

Can American capitalism change its present suicidally stupid patterns
of energy production without hurting the profits of the electric
utility industry, thus threatening the pension funds of older
Americans who are already being hurt badly by the latest financial
crisis and the latest capitalist world recession?

I'm not so sure that American capitalism can do this. Not when it's
hamstrung by idiotic libertarian ideologues and partisan Republicans,
who staunchly refuse to let the government rescue the capitalist
system when it needs it the most.

And not when it's paralyzed by the cowardice and conservativism of
"moderate" Democrats, many of them from coal-producing states, who are
likely to vote with the fossil fuel lobbyists & the Republicans when
it comes to legislating on climate change & its solutions.

So I think it's possible that in the United States, anyway, your
famous "free market democracy" is going to fall flat on its face when
faced with the challenge of transitioning out of our current energy
economy and into a more climate-friendly one.

If you love capitalism so much - how are you going to keep this from
happening, dude?

If the biggest capitalist corporations in America & the world continue
to be addicted to fossil fuel exploitation, and if the hundreds of
corporate lobbyists plaguing Capitol Hill prevent the US Congress and
the Obama White House from doing anything meaningful to correct the
biases of the coal, oil, utility and natural gas boys -- your "free
market democracy" is going to FAIL, isn't it?

And in failing, demonstrate to every thoughtful environmentalist that
"free market democracy" is actually just another word for eco-suicide?

On Oct 21, 4:26*pm, "not-jonathan" wrote:
Democracy and Freedom!

The best solution to climate change is found in a world dominated
by proper and legitimate free market democracies.

A global catastrophe is likely if the world finds itself dominated
by corrupt and incompetent dictatorships.

One form of society is highly adaptive, resilient to change and
has countless nested self correcting mechanisms. And 'change'
of almost any kind is considered an opportunity for a new market.
While dictatorships like China and others might just fuel *their
rapid industrialization with coal, and with few environmental
controls.

The collective ability of society to adapt to changes should
determine if our biosphere is headed for a new level of
stability, or some unpredictable calamity.

Imho. *Thank you for reading.

Jonathan

s

I can extensively agree with that analogy. However, why do you and so
many others need to have so many phony Usenet/newsgroup accounts?

What exactly are you hiding from us?

Are you suggesting that we should all be as phony and bogus as
yourself?

Your Spectra and "IceAgeTheories" are each interesting:
http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/IceAgeBook/Spectra.html
http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/IceAgeBo...eTheories.html

So, why are you hiding yourself behind multiple bogus names, and why
are tax payers having to pay for whatever it is that you actually do?

Are you any part of the BHO team (such as Steven Chu)?

In other words, what is your true motivation? and what is your
objective?

~ BG

On Oct 20, 9:29*pm, john fernbach wrote:
On Oct 21, 7:26*pm, "not-jonathan" wrote:



Democracy and Freedom!

The best solution to climate change is found in a world dominated
by proper and legitimate free market democracies.

A global catastrophe is likely if the world finds itself dominated
by corrupt and incompetent dictatorships.

One form of society is highly adaptive, resilient to change and
has countless nested self correcting mechanisms. And 'change'
of almost any kind is considered an opportunity for a new market.
While dictatorships like China and others might just fuel *their
rapid industrialization with coal, and with few environmental
controls.

The collective ability of society to adapt to changes should
determine if our biosphere is headed for a new level of
stability, or some unpredictable calamity.

Imho. *Thank you for reading.

Jonathan

s

Jonathan, I'm a green socialist, as everybody knows, and I somewhat
disagree.

But let's suppose for argument's sake that you're correct. *Well -
when is your GODDAMNED CAPITALIST SYSTEM actually going to show the
flexibility to fix the climate change problem?

Or excuse my French. *My biases are showing.

When is your favorite flexible, adaptive "free market" *economic
system actually going to take radical action to cease using fossil
fuels and start relying on renewable forms of energy?

It's one thing to CLAIM that free market democracies actually are
adaptive & wonderful and all.

It's another thing whether they actually deliver the goods.

As a half-baked student of Karl Marx, I strongly agree with you (and
with Marx) that capitalist economies excel at "revolutionizing the
instruments of production, and with them the relations of production,
and thereby relations of the whole society."

The history of capitalist industrialism to date has demonstrated that
the system repeatedly "revolutionizes the instruments of production"
and replaces older technologies with newer ones all the time.

So "free market democracies" COULD -- theoretically -- abandon their
old, environment-destroying industrial technologies and energy sources
(eg fossil fuels) and base their future prosperity on the development
and commercialization of new, environment-friendly, non-carbon energy
sources.

But ARE THEY ACTUALLY GOING *TO DO IT?

Can American capitalism, in particular, actually enact meaningful
climate legislation without threatening thousands of coal miners &
auto mechanics & oil patch mayors with higher unemployment -- which
"free market" libertarians in the US insist that the government cannot
and should not try to relieve?

Can American capitalism change its present suicidally stupid patterns
of energy production without hurting the profits of the electric
utility industry, thus threatening the pension funds of older
Americans who are already being hurt badly by the latest financial
crisis and the latest capitalist world recession?

I'm not so sure that American capitalism can do this. *Not when it's
hamstrung by idiotic libertarian ideologues and partisan Republicans,
who staunchly refuse to let the government rescue the capitalist
system when it needs it the most.

And not when it's paralyzed by the cowardice and conservativism of
"moderate" Democrats, many of them from coal-producing states, who are
likely to vote with the fossil fuel lobbyists & the Republicans when
it comes to legislating on climate change & its solutions.

So I think it's possible that in the United States, anyway, your
famous "free market democracy" is going to fall flat on its face when
faced with the challenge of transitioning out of our current energy
economy and into a more climate-friendly one.

If you love capitalism so much - how are you going to keep this from
happening, dude?

If the biggest capitalist corporations in America & the world continue
to be addicted to fossil fuel exploitation, and if the hundreds of
corporate lobbyists plaguing Capitol Hill prevent the US Congress and
the Obama White House from doing anything meaningful to correct the
biases of the coal, oil, utility and natural gas boys -- your "free
market democracy" is going to FAIL, isn't it?

And in failing, demonstrate to every thoughtful environmentalist that
"free market democracy" is actually just another word for eco-suicide?

It's all pretty much in those kosher Big Energy hands of those in
charge of most everything that counts.

As long as self-policing is not viable or otherwise working, our only
option is to suck it in and flat our go for it before China, India and
Russia end up with all the cookies.

I'm all for stopping a good portion of our hydrocarbon depletion and
of its environment pollution, including much of the hard-rock and
mineral mining that's also devastating to our environment. There are
technology alternatives and considerable efficiency gains that could
not only replace our dependency on fossil/bio fuels to one of
renewable and fusion that resolve most of our energy needs.

If you're interested, Steven Chu and I have ideas, and even logical
ones at that.

~ BG

On Oct 21, 4:57*pm, "not-jonathan" wrote:
"o%nbo" wrote in ...

"not-jonathan" wrote in message
m...

Democracy and Freedom!

The best solution to climate change is found in a world dominated
by proper and legitimate free market democracies.

Impossible to have a solution to a non-existent problem!
All we can do is adapt to any natural climate variations.

I just don't think this question should be whether
warming is happening or not. The question should
be whether society should gain the ability to
manage the biosphere to the benefit of all?

I think is you scroll down to fig 1-5, the problem
becomes clear. Change is coming. Whether the current
rate of change prevents the next ice age, or set's
is off is the big question. Having the ability to manage
the biosphere should be useful for ...either...possibility.

"From this plot, it is clear that most of the last 420 thousand years
was spent in ice age. The brief periods when the record peaks
above the zero line, the interglacials, typically lasted from a few thousand
to perhaps twenty thousand years. *These data should frighten you.
All of civilization developed during the last interglacial, and the data
show that such interglacials are very brief. Our time looks about up."http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/IceAgeBook/history_of_climate.html



Regards

Bonz0

"I care about the environment (I grew up in a solar house) and think there are
a dozen good reasons why we should burn less fossil fuels, but.global warming
is not one of them."
Nir Shaviv, Israeli physicist 2009

As long as we have such a nearby moon that's so massive and
contributing 2e20 N/sec, and especially as we keep getting closer to
the vibrant and massive Sirius star system, there's no way this planet
is ever going to see another ice-age, not even if every hydrocarbon
consuming human on Earth were removed.

The question is, how thawed, hot and stormy is it going to get?

Can we (all ten billion of us) survive with deeper and more expansive
oceans that are extensively dead-zone populated?

~ BG

On Oct 21, 6:26*pm, "not-jonathan" wrote:
Democracy and Freedom!

The best solution to climate change is found in a world dominated
by proper and legitimate free market democracies.

A global catastrophe is likely if the world finds itself dominated
by corrupt and incompetent dictatorships.

One form of society is highly adaptive, resilient to change and
has countless nested self correcting mechanisms. And 'change'
of almost any kind is considered an opportunity for a new market.
While dictatorships like China and others might just fuel *their
rapid industrialization with coal, and with few environmental
controls.

The collective ability of society to adapt to changes should
determine if our biosphere is headed for a new level of
stability, or some unpredictable calamity.

Imho. *Thank you for reading.

Jonathan

s

Some people see no difference between "free market democracies" and
"corrupt and incompetent dictatorships".

john fernbach wrote:
On Oct 21, 7:26 pm, "not-jonathan" wrote:
Democracy and Freedom!

The best solution to climate change is found in a world dominated
by proper and legitimate free market democracies.

A global catastrophe is likely if the world finds itself dominated
by corrupt and incompetent dictatorships.

One form of society is highly adaptive, resilient to change and
has countless nested self correcting mechanisms. And 'change'
of almost any kind is considered an opportunity for a new market.
While dictatorships like China and others might just fuel their
rapid industrialization with coal, and with few environmental
controls.

The collective ability of society to adapt to changes should
determine if our biosphere is headed for a new level of
stability, or some unpredictable calamity.

Imho. Thank you for reading.

Jonathan

s

Jonathan, I'm a green socialist, as everybody knows, and I somewhat
disagree.

But let's suppose for argument's sake that you're correct. Well -
when is your GODDAMNED CAPITALIST SYSTEM actually going to show the
flexibility to fix the climate change problem?

What makes you believe we can control the climate? It's no more possible to do that than to go faster than light. Any fool knows there are so many variables that make up climate that many of them are unknown.

On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 06:11:52 -0700 (PDT), BradGuth
wrote:

On Oct 20, 9:29Â*pm, john fernbach wrote:
On Oct 21, 7:26Â*pm, "not-jonathan" wrote:



Democracy and Freedom!

The best solution to climate change is found in a world dominated
by proper and legitimate free market democracies.

A global catastrophe is likely if the world finds itself dominated
by corrupt and incompetent dictatorships.

One form of society is highly adaptive, resilient to change and
has countless nested self correcting mechanisms. And 'change'
of almost any kind is considered an opportunity for a new market.
While dictatorships like China and others might just fuel Â*their
rapid industrialization with coal, and with few environmental
controls.

The collective ability of society to adapt to changes should
determine if our biosphere is headed for a new level of
stability, or some unpredictable calamity.

Imho. Â*Thank you for reading.

Jonathan

s

Jonathan, I'm a green socialist, as everybody knows, and I somewhat
disagree.

But let's suppose for argument's sake that you're correct. Â*Well -
when is your GODDAMNED CAPITALIST SYSTEM actually going to show the
flexibility to fix the climate change problem?

Or excuse my French. Â*My biases are showing.

When is your favorite flexible, adaptive "free market" Â*economic
system actually going to take radical action to cease using fossil
fuels and start relying on renewable forms of energy?

It's one thing to CLAIM that free market democracies actually are
adaptive & wonderful and all.

It's another thing whether they actually deliver the goods.

As a half-baked student of Karl Marx, I strongly agree with you (and
with Marx) that capitalist economies excel at "revolutionizing the
instruments of production, and with them the relations of production,
and thereby relations of the whole society."

The history of capitalist industrialism to date has demonstrated that
the system repeatedly "revolutionizes the instruments of production"
and replaces older technologies with newer ones all the time.

So "free market democracies" COULD -- theoretically -- abandon their
old, environment-destroying industrial technologies and energy sources
(eg fossil fuels) and base their future prosperity on the development
and commercialization of new, environment-friendly, non-carbon energy
sources.

But ARE THEY ACTUALLY GOING Â*TO DO IT?

Can American capitalism, in particular, actually enact meaningful
climate legislation without threatening thousands of coal miners &
auto mechanics & oil patch mayors with higher unemployment -- which
"free market" libertarians in the US insist that the government cannot
and should not try to relieve?

Can American capitalism change its present suicidally stupid patterns
of energy production without hurting the profits of the electric
utility industry, thus threatening the pension funds of older
Americans who are already being hurt badly by the latest financial
crisis and the latest capitalist world recession?

I'm not so sure that American capitalism can do this. Â*Not when it's
hamstrung by idiotic libertarian ideologues and partisan Republicans,
who staunchly refuse to let the government rescue the capitalist
system when it needs it the most.

And not when it's paralyzed by the cowardice and conservativism of
"moderate" Democrats, many of them from coal-producing states, who are
likely to vote with the fossil fuel lobbyists & the Republicans when
it comes to legislating on climate change & its solutions.

So I think it's possible that in the United States, anyway, your
famous "free market democracy" is going to fall flat on its face when
faced with the challenge of transitioning out of our current energy
economy and into a more climate-friendly one.

If you love capitalism so much - how are you going to keep this from
happening, dude?

If the biggest capitalist corporations in America & the world continue
to be addicted to fossil fuel exploitation, and if the hundreds of
corporate lobbyists plaguing Capitol Hill prevent the US Congress and
the Obama White House from doing anything meaningful to correct the
biases of the coal, oil, utility and natural gas boys -- your "free
market democracy" is going to FAIL, isn't it?

And in failing, demonstrate to every thoughtful environmentalist that
"free market democracy" is actually just another word for eco-suicide?

It's all pretty much in those kosher Big Energy hands of those in
charge of most everything that counts.

As long as self-policing is not viable or otherwise working, our only
option is to suck it in and flat our go for it before China, India and
Russia end up with all the cookies.

I'm all for stopping a good portion of our hydrocarbon depletion and
of its environment pollution, including much of the hard-rock and
mineral mining that's also devastating to our environment. There are
technology alternatives and considerable efficiency gains that could
not only replace our dependency on fossil/bio fuels to one of
renewable and fusion that resolve most of our energy needs.

If you're interested, Steven Chu and I have ideas, and even logical
ones at that.

~ BG

What "hard rock" mining other than gold is there?