Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

"Paul R. Mays" wrote in message
...

"Thomas McDonald" wrote in message
...
"Paul R. Mays" wrote in message
...

"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:

Cities under a few hundred feet of water and 90 or so
feet of ocean debris can wipe a few traces.. and how
much of a trace would you say a 200 foot tall stone
building would leave... after being scraped over by a
couple miles of ice.... for a 1000 years or so...

You have not produced the means to distinguish between no such city
ever, and a city wiped clean. In the absence of evidence you have
not
a
square yard to stand on. All you offer us if feeble speculations not
backed up by anything other than your foolish fantasizing.

Bob Kolker



I'm not the expert and I make no claims.. I have read and considered
many areas of studies and I have found reasonable evidence provided
by many writers that actually got off their asses ( unlike you) and
researched the possibilities... Just because you have a limited
mental
ability to comprehend evidence presented by many well informed and
respected researchers does not mean that a simple layman as I would
waste my time repeating the writings of those that have spent their
lives actually doing the research in order to spoon feed your
knowledge
void.

http://www.guardians.net/hawass/remnants.htm
http://www.grahamhancock.com/news/index.php
http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/bookshop.php
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/2962443.htm
http://archives.mundoacuatico.com/oc...iousstones.pdf



http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...kencities.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1923794.stm



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in522626.shtml
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/detail.asp?ID=32604&GRP=A
http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html
http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue1...apanunder.html


That's a start but there's a much longer list....

Paul,

Do you really suggest that the above list are the 'references' you
are
using?

You do not have a clue about providing references in an orderly and
meaningful way, do you? Most of the items are crap, already shown to be
wrong. Several are links to on-line bookstores, not to information that
can
be reviewed. One, a CBS news site, gets very wrong the date at which
the
Aztecs first learned about Teotihuacán; and is, in any case, a
journalistic
work (as are most of the rest of your "references"), not scientific
work.

You might be posting from alt.fan.art-bell; I don't know. But the
other
three groups you're cross-posting to are sci. groups, and in science,
evidence is presented carefully, is discussed and debated in a
scientific
way, and is not conducted via dueling news stories.

Maybe in a nice class room somewhere but on a few
newsgroups on the internet where the likes of TJ, Smart, Spacey
and others banter about, I think I might just be allowed to do and
say pretty much what ever the **** I want to ... and say it
in any way I wish.. When the time comes that I wish to have
a peer review of some aspect of my own postulates I will take the
time to quote from the books, provide an out line, bibliography,
organized reference lists etc.. Till then I'll just say go to the
big building in your town that has all those dusty old paper things
with all the letters printed in them.... They use to be called books...
and there's a lot of them and many have some neat stuff.....




Tom McDonald
remove 'nohormel' to reply



I'm not writing a dissertation for peer review folks....
I could sit down and go through the many books on the
subject ( I really hope you guys don't really rely on the
internet as your primary information source) then individually
post a series of supporting links and a complete bibliography
of all reference material... But I really don't care that much...

If you carefully read what I have written through this thread you
might notice that I said these are not my suggestions of evidence...

These are positions made by many writers, some I fully agree read
the evidence and make statements that are far fetched... But they
point to Evidence..... not proof... and many of the writers in the
book listing pages have many pages of calculations, physical
objects and a host of very specific pieces of evidence. To
suggest that we all should give up reading the books, and just
stick to getting your knowledge base on the internet, is a good
way to examine the presented evidence is a whole new thread...

The links I put up were just a quick capture and were not a
follow up to some claim of proof of anything.. Just a few
bits with some names of books that you can actually read and
get some very detailed pieces of presented evidence.. some of
the writers may from time to time make wild ass claims as to
what they think the evidence means but it does not make the
evidence they provide not have value.. If I found a buried bag
with a 3 pound diamond in it and claim that it must have been
left by aliens, that is a foolish claim, but the diamond a very
interesting find worthy of further study all by itself...


I'll just ask you just one thing and see if you will actually do
your own leg work and see if there's something a bit weird...

Map all the pyramids around Gaza ..... Match the positions
of the 7 stars of the Orion constellation on any star charting
software .... Rotate the constellation backward in time until
the positions of all 7 of the Gaza pyramids match the positions
of the 7 stars in the constellation... Thinks that's bunk don't ya...
Ya think its just some wild claim... Try it....

Then think about our present model...

Paul,

Do you really think that no one here has done what you say we should do?
I've read widely in mainstream and alternative literature. I have the
handicap of two years of advanced study in archaeology, and two more in
psychology and counseling, so perhaps you can find some way to discount
that, too. In addition, I've written a fair amount of news stories, and I
know the difference between journalism and scholarship.

Much of the calculation, measurement, etc. of artifacts and sites you
talk about is GIGO, and I think you know it. If there is ever to be real
discovery of reliable evidence of an ice-age civilization, it will be made
by mainstream science if it comes up with anomolies that can't be otherwise
explained. I think even the woo-woos prefer to reference, for example,
Schoch to West, and for good reason; Schoch is a scientist, and he will not
go along with ideas that have not been validated scientifically. I refer
you to his work on the "Yonaguni monuments".

BTW, your frequent suggestion that people here go out and read books is
insulting; in the sci. groups at least, it is coals to Newcastle. I could
ask what mainstream books (although I will expand that to include scientific
journals) on these issues _you've_ read; you know, from that big building in
your town with all those musty books? If it isn't at least equal to the
type of work you've mentioned so far, then you have absolutely no room to
preach at anyone else.

--
Tom McDonald
remove 'nohormel' to reply

"Paul R. Mays" wrote in message ...

Map all the pyramids around Gaza ..... Match the positions
of the 7 stars of the Orion constellation on any star charting
software .... Rotate the constellation backward in time until
the positions of all 7 of the Gaza pyramids match the positions
of the 7 stars in the constellation... Thinks that's bunk don't ya...
Ya think its just some wild claim... Try it....

Then think about our present model...

you're a k00k

Paul R. Mays wrote:

and come up with building 10 k years old "(When they find Venice
underwater 10,000 years from now, ) " add another 5 and you are almost
there in your conceptualizing... Read, Study, research the subject that
has been under study for a long time then make up your mind..

There are 24 hours in a day, which is 1440 minutes. I have better uses
for my time.

Bob Kolker

Paul R. Mays wrote:

Just remember.. just 1 little man made varifable building
at 400 feet is proof that there "Was a civilization that existed
13 000 years ago" which was the topic... no Atlantis mentioned..

So what? 13,000 years from now someone will say, look! I have found
evidence of a civilization that existed 13,000 years ago.

Bob Kolker

Paul R. Mays wrote:


I remember reading about a fantastic claim that the earth was round
at one time... then some idiot made the claim that the earth actually
orbited the sun... those fools... oh yea... they were right after all...

They were believed AFTER the evidence was in hand, not before. Did you
know that a broken 12 hour clock tells the right time twice a day?

Bob Kolker

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:43:01 -0400, "Paul R. Mays"
wrote:


Now If a reasonable civilization were to form after the
event they have 40 to 55 k years to develop a
city based culture.

Why would a reduction of humans down to a few thousand
cause them to suddenly build cities?


Now that culture has limited
availability to place cities... The northern and southern
hemispheres are Ice covered. The mountains along
the equatorial areas are ice capped and 500 to 800 feet
higher above sea level than today. The coast line and
all river systems are in vastly different locations . Most
land that is usable would be in the low lands with smaller
hamlets and villages scattered to the edges of the ice fields
and even on the ice fields.

Do you realize that geologists are able to see where rivers
used to flow?


Now along about 30 to 20 k ago the ice receded and this
happened very quick which makes me think there was a second
catastrophic event of some type. This melt changed the face
of the planet. We are looking at where man traveled as he
tried to make a comeback after his numbers were cut by the
melt period , the places he would have lived before in numbers
would be well under water. And since we are still finding
lost cities that are only a few k old on dry land close to where
people been building for 2000 years leads to understanding why
evidence for a 15k civilization is a bit sparse... but not a totally
absence..

Once again you forget habitats that go back many tens of thousands
of years. It also appears that you believe that the entire Earth was
covered in ice. That might have occurred many millions of years
ago, and that theory is still very new, but there is no evidence that
it ever happened in the last ice age.





--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® member #15-51506-253.
You can email me at: eckles(at)midsouth.rr.com

"The services provided by Sylvia Browne Corporation are highly
speculative in nature and we do not guarantee that the results
of our work will be satisfactory to a client."
-Sylvia's Refund Policy

"No, the next step, Doktor, is that you start diagnosing illegally and
stupidly online, and get your license revoked."
-viveshwar

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:49:48 -0400, "Paul R. Mays"
wrote:


http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/bookshop.php

Has a bunch...


of crap. You really don't know Hancock's history.




--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® member #15-51506-253.
You can email me at: eckles(at)midsouth.rr.com

"The services provided by Sylvia Browne Corporation are highly
speculative in nature and we do not guarantee that the results
of our work will be satisfactory to a client."
-Sylvia's Refund Policy

"No, the next step, Doktor, is that you start diagnosing illegally and
stupidly online, and get your license revoked."
-viveshwar

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:48:09 -0400, "Paul R. Mays"
wrote:


"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:

Cities under a few hundred feet of water and 90 or so
feet of ocean debris can wipe a few traces.. and how
much of a trace would you say a 200 foot tall stone
building would leave... after being scraped over by a
couple miles of ice.... for a 1000 years or so...

You have not produced the means to distinguish between no such city
ever, and a city wiped clean. In the absence of evidence you have not a
square yard to stand on. All you offer us if feeble speculations not
backed up by anything other than your foolish fantisizing.

Bob Kolker



I'm not the expert and I make no claims.. I have read and considered
many areas of studies and I have found reasonable evidence provided
by many writers that actually got off their asses ( unlike you) and
researched the possibilities... Just because you have a limited mental
ability to comprehend evidence presented by many well informed and
respected researchers does not mean that a simple layman as I would
waste my time repeating the writings of those that have spent their
lives actually doing the research in order to spoon feed your knowledge
void.


Hancock has spent his live preying upon the passionately credulous
such
as yourself. He has no background in any of the areas he claims to be
an expert in. Yet you would rather take his theories over those of
hundreds of thousands of geologists, anthropologists, etc...

Amazing.





--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® member #15-51506-253.
You can email me at: eckles(at)midsouth.rr.com

"The services provided by Sylvia Browne Corporation are highly
speculative in nature and we do not guarantee that the results
of our work will be satisfactory to a client."
-Sylvia's Refund Policy

"No, the next step, Doktor, is that you start diagnosing illegally and
stupidly online, and get your license revoked."
-viveshwar

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:21:45 -0400, "Paul R. Mays"
wrote:



Then your an Idiot.....


Spot the irony?

You gotta love the self inflicted wounds that
kooks do to themselves.





--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® member #15-51506-253.
You can email me at: eckles(at)midsouth.rr.com

"The services provided by Sylvia Browne Corporation are highly
speculative in nature and we do not guarantee that the results
of our work will be satisfactory to a client."
-Sylvia's Refund Policy

"No, the next step, Doktor, is that you start diagnosing illegally and
stupidly online, and get your license revoked."
-viveshwar

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:22:42 -0500, "Thomas McDonald"
wrote:

You might be posting from alt.fan.art-bell; I don't know. But the other
three groups you're cross-posting to are sci. groups, and in science,
evidence is presented carefully, is discussed and debated in a scientific
way, and is not conducted via dueling news stories.

Tom McDonald
remove 'nohormel' to reply



He's not one of ours Tom. afa-b is not a place where he would
find any solace.





--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® member #15-51506-253.
You can email me at: eckles(at)midsouth.rr.com

"The services provided by Sylvia Browne Corporation are highly
speculative in nature and we do not guarantee that the results
of our work will be satisfactory to a client."
-Sylvia's Refund Policy

"No, the next step, Doktor, is that you start diagnosing illegally and
stupidly online, and get your license revoked."
-viveshwar