Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

In sci.astro Tedd wrote:

this is quite the different tune than you were singing in your previous post.

No it's not!

so to rephrase my earlier question a bit:

you would accept the word of someone quoting "science", that had never read
"science"?

No, I wouldn't! NOR would I "accept the word" of a scientist
quoting "science"! What I WOULD do is use the assertions of BOTH
as a starting point and indicators for my own investigations.

You are trying SO hard to be able to dismiss anything some non-priest
says as if they don't have eyes or a brain! I'm not saying that the
amateur observer is always right. Neither am I saying the trained
scientist is always right. "Accepting the word" hasn't really a place
in science. "Checking the word" does.

Here's a hypothetical example. Some bumpkin reports a gigantic
UFO 50 feet across landed in his back yard. Imediately the
freak crowd jumps on EVERY word of the report as gospel.
Simultaneously, all the "trained" scientists go on TV asserting
that the Farmer had "halucination" and really just saw "venus"
or maybe some "swamp gas". "Did you go investigate?", The TV
talking head asks? "Why no! No science 'professional' would
EVER waste time on such 'obvious' nonsense!"

OK, now you tell me, WHO is the brainless boob here? A farmer
who saw something interesting or the guy who says that a
farmer cannot tell the difference between something 50(!)
feet across and Venus? You see what I'm ranting about?
Neither the farmer nor the scientists are doing science!
The scientist is the one who takes the farmer's word
as SOMETHING that MIGHT be interesting and goes to check
for landing pad footprints and other evidence in the
farmer's back yard.

I'm using a UFO example here, but the same thing applies
if the farmer dug up a Cyclopean wall in his corn field.
You'd think this would be an exciting event among
"professionals" but instead, it gets ignored, the
farmer ridiculed and only Art Bell or the like has
the guts to actually take a look and talk to the guy!

The end result is that person who ends up actually being the
"expert" on the discovery is the untrained farmer because
he's actually looked at it while all the so-called "trained"
scientists have dismissed the find and refused to even look
because it doesn't fit into the nice pat "traditional"
picture they've come to accept as religion.

What exactly does this say about professional "science"?

NOT MUCH!

bjacoby
--
Due to SPAM innundation above address is turned off!

replied:
In sci.astro Rich wrote:


replied:


[...]


So when orthodox scientists quickly learn that your funding
and jobs greatly depend on your NOT looking into certain
problem areas (such as UFOs, Atlantis, ESP, etc.)


Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the problems here.


Honey, it's you!


If ESP exists, why the need to research it?

If electricity exists, why the need to research it?

It's existence has always been apparent to anyone who's seen
a thunderstorm. The existence of ESP has not been so clearly
established. I don't see that statistical methods prove anything,
as if it works as promised it should work every time. Stats
tell you somthing about a group, idiot ESP researchers apply
stats to events and draw unsupported conclusions. Stats are not
predictive and tell nothing about any event, and they cannot
even in principle.

Can you demonstrate unequivocally that ESP exists?

And does not
Atlantis fall under the umbrella of history or mythology
rather than science?

Archeology is myth. Right?

Atlantis != Archeology, no matter how often you confuse them.

Can you prove that Atlantis existed? Where is/was it?

As for UFOs, what, exactly is the problem? Other than some
rather neat hoax videos and some unexplained but oft made
connection with crop circles, what is there to investigate?

I hate to tell you this, but when you get groceries ask for
"paper" rather than "Plastic". The paper bag over your head
work SO much better at keeping things to investigate from
coming to your attention.

So ad hominem is all you got. How shocking that is.

Do you believe that ET is trying to communicate with us by
abducting and raping women, by the anal coring of cows, by
anally probing abductees and by making crop circles?

Do YOU believe that there has been no anal coring and
other mutilations of cattle and farm animals?

Do you believe that this is how ET communicates? Please answer
yes or no. If you have some other observations on the meaning of
cattle mutilations, please elucidate.

Do you believe
that there is nothing about crop circles that can't be
"explained" by a bunch of kids stomping in a wheat field?

Do you believe that this is how ET communicates? Please answer
yes or no.

Sounds like the bag is working!

More ad hominem, and more unanswered questions. How shocking.

And why in the world would ET wish to communicate with
the violent, savage, primitive creatures on this planet?

I can see why they'd not want to communicate with you. But you
still miss the questions clean.

The purported doings of ET make him no better than you paint
us. Why do you not hold ET to the same standards you hold man?

Oh, yeah, I forgot to include "superstitious".

You seem a true believer yourself dude. How can the superstitious
cast aspersion on man for being superstitious? It boggles the mind.

Where are the foo-fighters today?

Rich

DrPostman wrote in message . ..
On 16 Oct 2003 04:47:24 -0700, (Double-A) wrote:

Ed Conrad wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:00:21 +0100, Doug Weller
wrote in response
to the question:

====================================

WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION
THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO?




Tiahuanaco.


Which archaeologists date to this era, not even B.C.E.


Mainstream archaeologists would say that's true. But other
archaeologists have speculated that it is far older, anywhere from 13
to 40 thousand years old.

The interesting thing about it is that was apparently a port, with
remnants of docks still extant. But Lake Titicaca is almost 10 miles
away. The ruins are also about 2 miles above sea level. Was the city
a port on the lake when the water was higher? The odd thing is that
in recent years, investigating Indian legends of structures beneath
the lake, explorers have found the ruins of stone buildings deep under
the surface of the lake, that are similar to the above ground ruins.
Had the civilization existed in the region before the lake? Then why
was it a port? Was it on the ocean?

If it was an ocean port, then it couldn't have been built within the
last couple of thousand years because the upward thrust of the Andes
Mountains has not been that rapid. But 13,000 years ago? Possibly.

Also, consider how a city with such large stone blocks could have been
built in the thin air of an altitude of 2 miles high. It seems much
more reasonable to suppose it was built many thousands of years ago
when it would have been at a lower altitude.

Double-A

wrote in message ...
In sci.astro Tedd wrote:

this is quite the different tune than you were singing in your previous post.

No it's not!

so to rephrase my earlier question a bit:

you would accept the word of someone quoting "science", that had never read
"science"?

No, I wouldn't! NOR would I "accept the word" of a scientist
quoting "science"! What I WOULD do is use the assertions of BOTH
as a starting point and indicators for my own investigations.

You are trying SO hard to be able to dismiss anything some non-priest
says as if they don't have eyes or a brain! I'm not saying that the
amateur observer is always right. Neither am I saying the trained
scientist is always right. "Accepting the word" hasn't really a place
in science. "Checking the word" does.

Here's a hypothetical example. Some bumpkin reports a gigantic
UFO 50 feet across landed in his back yard. Imediately the
freak crowd jumps on EVERY word of the report as gospel.
Simultaneously, all the "trained" scientists go on TV asserting
that the Farmer had "halucination" and really just saw "venus"
or maybe some "swamp gas". "Did you go investigate?", The TV
talking head asks? "Why no! No science 'professional' would
EVER waste time on such 'obvious' nonsense!"

OK, now you tell me, WHO is the brainless boob here? A farmer
who saw something interesting or the guy who says that a
farmer cannot tell the difference between something 50(!)
feet across and Venus? You see what I'm ranting about?
Neither the farmer nor the scientists are doing science!
The scientist is the one who takes the farmer's word
as SOMETHING that MIGHT be interesting and goes to check
for landing pad footprints and other evidence in the
farmer's back yard.

I'm using a UFO example here, but the same thing applies
if the farmer dug up a Cyclopean wall in his corn field.
You'd think this would be an exciting event among
"professionals" but instead, it gets ignored, the
farmer ridiculed and only Art Bell or the like has
the guts to actually take a look and talk to the guy!

The end result is that person who ends up actually being the
"expert" on the discovery is the untrained farmer because
he's actually looked at it while all the so-called "trained"
scientists have dismissed the find and refused to even look
because it doesn't fit into the nice pat "traditional"
picture they've come to accept as religion.

What exactly does this say about professional "science"?

NOT MUCH!

bjacoby

Perhaps you would be willing to help me out, then. No one
else has been willing to listen. It all started last
summer, when I was driving along North County Road, north
of Broadwater, Nebraska. My car broke down, and I started
walking back towards town to get it towed. All of a sudden,
I tripped on something. I looked down, and I couldn't see
what I had tripped on, but I could feel it. It was
invisible. It felt smooth and metallic, and it was
shaped like a donut, but about two feet across. I tried
to pick it up, but it was so heavy I couldn't feel it budge.
But I found a button on the bottom side of it. I pressed
it, and an electric shock ran through my body. I looked
around, and I saw that I was no longer on the road, but
in some sort of room. Strange symbols whirled about in
the air. I realized that the object had made contact
directly with my mind. "What is this?" I asked. A voice
answered, "What is being proposed ... is trade. In
exchange for ... samples ... of 34,263,736 of your ...
world's ... species, we will grant you certain ...
technologies, including ... telepathy, teleportation, and
certain things you have no ... concept of at this stage."
At that point, I reawoke, finding myself fallen against
the object, with a large bump on my head. I marked the
spot with a large "X" drawn in the ground with my foot.
But whenever I tell people about it, they just call me
nuts. A week ago, I was in a motorcycle accident and
broke three ribs. In my present condition, I cannot
return to the spot. I need you to follow my directions
to the place, so I can confirm my story to the world.

wrote in message ...
In sci.astro Tedd wrote:

this is quite the different tune than you were singing in your previous
post.

No it's not!

so to rephrase my earlier question a bit:

you would accept the word of someone quoting "science", that had never read
"science"?

No, I wouldn't! NOR would I "accept the word" of a scientist
quoting "science"! What I WOULD do is use the assertions of BOTH
as a starting point and indicators for my own investigations.

then how could i believe you?

"you would accept the word of someone quoting "science", that had never read
"science"?"

"No, I wouldn't!"

In sci.astro Rich wrote:
replied:

If electricity exists, why the need to research it?

It's existence has always been apparent to anyone who's seen
a thunderstorm. The existence of ESP has not been so clearly
established. I don't see that statistical methods prove anything,
as if it works as promised it should work every time. Stats
tell you somthing about a group, idiot ESP researchers apply
stats to events and draw unsupported conclusions. Stats are not
predictive and tell nothing about any event, and they cannot
even in principle.

If electricity works then it should work every time! Can you
predict for me where lightening will strike? Are you going
to claim some bogus statistical methods to "prove" lightening
exists? Those idiot meteorologists keep drawing all these
unsuported conclusions that can't be predicted and verified
and tell nothing about any given electrical event. Why would
anyone waste time studying this tripe? Luckily you've got
me here to debunk electricity for you!

Can you demonstrate unequivocally that ESP exists?

Can you demonstrate unequivocally that YOU exist?

But of course you totally miss the point. You are so
busy denying and "debunking" that you can't figure
out the the whole point of an investigation is to
FIND OUT what is true and what isn't. You on the other
hand want to start from you dogma and then deny that
any other intepretation might exist. As I stated
before you are exactly what I'm ranting about.

Atlantis != Archeology, no matter how often you confuse them.

Proof by assertion! Always a winner in my book!

Can you prove that Atlantis existed? Where is/was it?

Can you prove it never existed? I mean uneqivocally?
Go ahead prove that negative! Because that's what you'll
have to do to demonstrate that any investigation of
the possiblity of Atlantis is a waste of time.

So ad hominem is all you got. How shocking that is.

It's not all I've got, but I say one ad hominem deserves
another.

Do you believe that this is how ET communicates? Please answer
yes or no. If you have some other observations on the meaning of
cattle mutilations, please elucidate.

Why is it that in your book it always comes down to belief?
Why is science religion to you? Why is it a matter of faith
rather than observations. What exactly is your point here?
That since we don't have a lot of data what is causing
the phenomena we should ignore it? Or perhaps you are
debunking the whole idea of cattle mutilations. You still
haven't answered if YOU believe if they actually exist.
"Belief" IS a valid question for you since this is a matter
of your faith.

Do you believe
that there is nothing about crop circles that can't be
"explained" by a bunch of kids stomping in a wheat field?

Do you believe that this is how ET communicates? Please answer
yes or no.

Please answer my question first.

Sounds like the bag is working!

More ad hominem, and more unanswered questions. How shocking.

It's not ad hominem if the comments are demonstrably true
and relevant to the issue.

You seem a true believer yourself dude. How can the superstitious
cast aspersion on man for being superstitious? It boggles the mind.

What boggles the mind is how a person who operates totally on
superstition projects that mindset onto others and then
criticizes them for that projection being like themselves.
Did you get that?

Where are the foo-fighters today?

Dood! They got PLENTY of gigs!

Bjacoby

--
Due to SPAM innundation above address is turned off!

On 16 Oct 2003 12:59:14 -0700, (Double-A) wrote:

DrPostman wrote in message . ..
On 16 Oct 2003 04:47:24 -0700, (Double-A) wrote:

Ed Conrad wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:00:21 +0100, Doug Weller
wrote in response
to the question:

====================================

WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION
THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO?




Tiahuanaco.


Which archaeologists date to this era, not even B.C.E.


Mainstream archaeologists would say that's true. But other
archaeologists have speculated that it is far older, anywhere from 13
to 40 thousand years old.

Cites? All I can find is what archaeologists who have gone there
and studied it come up with.


The interesting thing about it is that was apparently a port, with
remnants of docks still extant. But Lake Titicaca is almost 10 miles
away. The ruins are also about 2 miles above sea level. Was the city
a port on the lake when the water was higher? The odd thing is that
in recent years, investigating Indian legends of structures beneath
the lake, explorers have found the ruins of stone buildings deep under
the surface of the lake, that are similar to the above ground ruins.
Had the civilization existed in the region before the lake? Then why
was it a port? Was it on the ocean?

Geologists will tell you that the Lake was much larger only 1,000
years ago. Again, interdisciplinary research beats speculation
all the time.


If it was an ocean port, then it couldn't have been built within the
last couple of thousand years because the upward thrust of the Andes
Mountains has not been that rapid. But 13,000 years ago? Possibly.

If it was that quick there would be nothing left but broken stones


Also, consider how a city with such large stone blocks could have been
built in the thin air of an altitude of 2 miles high. It seems much
more reasonable to suppose it was built many thousands of years ago
when it would have been at a lower altitude.

The quarry for it is not too far away. You are making suppositions
without enough research.






--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® member #15-51506-253.
You can email me at: eckles(at)midsouth.rr.com

"The services provided by Sylvia Browne Corporation are highly
speculative in nature and we do not guarantee that the results
of our work will be satisfactory to a client."
-Sylvia's Refund Policy

"No, the next step, Doktor, is that you start diagnosing illegally and
stupidly online, and get your license revoked."
-viveshwar

In sci.astro M Fielding wrote:

Perhaps you would be willing to help me out, then. No one
else has been willing to listen. It all started last
summer, when I was driving along North County Road, north
of Broadwater, Nebraska. My car broke down, and I started
walking back towards town to get it towed. All of a sudden,
I tripped on something. I looked down, and I couldn't see
what I had tripped on, but I could feel it. It was
invisible. It felt smooth and metallic, and it was
shaped like a donut, but about two feet across. I tried
to pick it up, but it was so heavy I couldn't feel it budge.
But I found a button on the bottom side of it. I pressed
it, and an electric shock ran through my body. I looked
around, and I saw that I was no longer on the road, but
in some sort of room. Strange symbols whirled about in
the air. I realized that the object had made contact
directly with my mind. "What is this?" I asked. A voice
answered, "What is being proposed ... is trade. In
exchange for ... samples ... of 34,263,736 of your ...
world's ... species, we will grant you certain ...
technologies, including ... telepathy, teleportation, and
certain things you have no ... concept of at this stage."
At that point, I reawoke, finding myself fallen against
the object, with a large bump on my head. I marked the
spot with a large "X" drawn in the ground with my foot.
But whenever I tell people about it, they just call me
nuts. A week ago, I was in a motorcycle accident and
broke three ribs. In my present condition, I cannot
return to the spot. I need you to follow my directions
to the place, so I can confirm my story to the world.

I see what you are saying. You are trying to lay a trap for me
so I will make the bold a priori assumption that your
story is fiction. Personally I feel your story may indeed
be fiction. But for me to assume such simply because it
SOUNDS like it's fiction, is EXACTLY the problem I'm
talking about. Obviously, such an assumption cannot
be made. What is needed is for someone to go check
the spot where you allege the event occured. Of course,
there may or may not be verification at the location.
If the device is still there that might be of interest.
Perhaps your mark or marks from the alleged device
will still be there. Those have meaning.

You ask for my help in confirming your story. But you
neglect to give me sufficient information so as to
make a decision. For example, if your "spot" is a few
feet down from my driveway, I'd be tickled to check
on your story. If it's in California, I'll have to pass
and let someone out there with sufficient interest in
the topic do your checking.

The point is that you have generated a story. And you
clearly have some reason for doing so. THAT is a fact.
It's a rather interesting story too, with serious implications
for humanity. Therefore, one could say that such a
story might be worth checking out. As to the question
whether or not the story is fiction, that would depend
upon what an investigation finds, wouldn't it? And here
exactly is where I and the "debunkers" differ. They say
the story is nonsense with nothing, but belief and faith
to back up the assertion. I say the story stands or falls
on the observable facts that support it.

If I reject the story out of hand because it's "obviously"
not true, then I'm a priest and not doing science. And even
worse, if I actually know the story is likely true, but for
political reasons choose to cover up the fact, I'll not only
pronouce your story fiction without any investigation what-so-
ever, but also will call you a "wacko" and a "loon" to help
discredit you with the public. That's WORSE than simply
being a priest!

Bjacoby

--
Due to SPAM innundation above address is turned off!

On 15 Oct 2003 17:32:10 GMT, wrote in
alt.fan.art-bell:

In sci.astro DrPostman wrote:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:41:28 -0400, "Paul R. Mays"
wrote:

But just to clarify.. I make no claims.. I state that
some people of note have given specific evidence that
supports the view of a larger civilization than what the
present historical record indicate..

None of those you pointed to hold degrees in archeology,
anthropology, geology, etc.... Why do you take the
word of amateurs with questionable backgrounds over
thousands of well studied field workers who really know
their stuff, and are aware of interdisciplinary collaborations?

Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT member #15-51506-253.

You ask why? So I'll tell you why. "Offical" science
today tends to be a religion more than science.

Horse ****. Try not to be stupid. It's a big leap for you, so try it
just for five minutes a day. After a week, try ten minutes.
--
V.G.

"People are more violently opposed to fur than leather, because it is easier to harrass
rich women than it is motorcycle gangs." - Bumper Sticker
(This sig file contains not less than 80% recycled SPAM)

Sarcasm is my sword, Apathy is my shield.

Perhaps a better question would be:

"Was there a civilization that existed 3 years ago?"
(Before Bush and Sharon appeared on the scene.)

--
Tom Potter http://tompotter.us