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Soyuz TMA-11 Comes Home, More or Less...



 
 
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  #121  
Old May 7th 08, 04:12 AM posted to sci.space.history
Andre Lieven[_3_]
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Default Soyuz TMA-11 Comes Home, More or Less...

On May 6, 2:51 pm, Pat Flannery wrote:
Andre Lieven wrote:
That also means that that definition of " facts " would include all of
the sites about the 9/11 Jewish Conspiracy, and the Moon Landing Hoax...


Books on those subjects also.


Often self published, which puts them right back at Internet quality
sourcing...

Posting web sites has as much editorial and peer review credibility as
does self publishing by a vanity press. It MAY be better than that,
but theres no standard by which to discern such a difference.


Which gives the readers of the web the golden ability to actually make
up their own minds about what they believe, rather than trusting one
version of it that's spoon-fed to them via large media outlets, thereby
letting them develop their ability for critical thinking when they are
young.


The problem with this concept is that, very often, either media bias,
or there
being a plethora of nutbar sites that come up on a Google search make
even
crazy things *appear* as if they are somewhat mainstream.

Creationism and Moon Landing Hoaxes are but two great examples of this
truth. The Creationists' current shell game is " teach the controversy
", ignoring
the fact that there is no legitimate scientific controversy, as the
decision in
Kitzmiller V/ Dover well shows.

Doing that by books would be very time-consuming, but on the Internet
it's easy.


No, its really not. Derek's distinction between facts and knowledge
was spot on. There are a lot of facts on the Web, some of them even
true, but for real knowledge in depth, books are still the place to go to.


In most cases with a book, you are getting the author's viewpoint of
knowledge, not knowledge itself.


If the book has 40 pages of footnotes, thats not really correct.

The author has studied facts in depth...hopefully...and is asking you to
trust their interpretation of them.


Again, given a work with hundreds of primary sourced footnotes is
nowhere near comparable to an unsourced website of opinings.

Given a different author...particularly if that author comes from a
different cultural background, or political point of view, and their
interpretation of the same things is bound to vary from the first
author's in regard to interpretation of the same data.


What, theres more than than one fact based view of whether or not
Apollo actually happened ?

Using the B-17 as a example, the viewpoint of a German author whose city
was on the receiving end of its bombs is bound to vary greatly from the
former AAC member who flew them and is writing about them.


Thats if you are reading Oprah class " memoirs ". If you are reading
operational histories, thats not correct.

This proposition also presupposes that books are without error in
regards to information, which certainly is not the case.


Well, as no one suggested that straw donkey, then that neither adds
nor distracts from the relative credibility of each source. But, for the
most credible knowledge,


To figure this out, you'd have to define what exactly what "knowledge"
is; once you go past the bare facts of a subject, any commentary on it
become a matter of interpretation and viewpoint.
We know that on 9/11, three hijacked airliners ran into buildings,
appalling America.
As to the meaning and of that event, and what led to it occurring, you
will find a lot of different views around the world.


So ? You find a lot of " different views " as to whether or not three
planes
actually hit the towers and the Pentagon, but the facts only allow
one
such view to be accurate.

So "knowledge" of it is lacking in a lot of ways, unless by knowledge
you mean a majority interpretation of a event held in one country or
culture.
On the day it occurred, Palestinians were dancing in Gaza City for the
strike against America - the ally of Israel that Osama had wrought...at
the same time, that van of Israeli tourists that were picked up in NYC
while videotaping it were also happy, as now America could see what
Israel had to put up with from the Palestinians.


That latter one, I''d want to see a cite to. People who say " Now you
have
a better understanding of what we live through " are not necessarily
" happy ".

So right there, you could have three different interpretations of one
event... so much for consistent "knowledge" about it.


As I have pointed out, I quite disagree. You're basically suggesting
that
intellectual nihlism is the way to go.

In much the same way, the works of Aristotle became the unquestionable
backbone of philosophic knowledge in the middle ages, despite the fact
that most of Aristotle's fact were dead wrong, including such things as
the sun going around the Earth. So much for the knowledge of the middle
ages, where books tell you that particular stars pull on particular
types of plants and cause them to grow, or the old Einstein story about
giving his students the exact same physics test two years running, on
the grounds that the answers were different the second time around. :-D


Well, the idea that just because some folks, hundreds or tens of years
ago,
used book knowledge badly, that book based knowledge now is a bad
thing,
is so stretching the point that you've gone way beyond a Road Runner &
Coyote Acme SNAP !

books remain the gold standard. And, they come without
every use fees...


Not for the trees, they don't.


Trees don't possess, or acquire knowledge, so this is a major Straw
Inflatable F*** Toy...

I've probably have the makings of a 300 to 400 pound tree sitting on my
bookshelves, and when sitting on the stool, get to examine the writing
on sheets of paper made from a tree, while flushing other sheets of
paper made from a tree down the toilet.


So ? You gonna use the WWW to download virtual wipes, or what ?

None of that in any way addressed the fact that primary sources are
the standard for any good footnoted work of a book, and few such can
be
found on primary Internet sources.

Derek's earlier well written point, IMHO, stands quite well.

Andre

  #122  
Old May 7th 08, 05:05 AM posted to sci.space.history
Scott Hedrick[_2_]
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Default Soyuz TMA-11 Comes Home, More or Less...


"Andre Lieven" wrote in message
...
Let's not mention "Stargate: Infinity" again...


Agreed. I note that its about to be offered on DVD. I won't be getting
one...


What about the animated Starship Troopers? I've found two VHS with 5
episodes each.


And, I do have the Space 1999 set and the first season of classic
BSG...


The *only* season of classic BSG.

As to Space:1999, I preferred the first season, although having mission
control underground makes far more sense.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
  #123  
Old May 7th 08, 05:11 AM posted to sci.space.history
Scott Hedrick[_2_]
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Default Soyuz TMA-11 Comes Home, More or Less...


"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
news:wLGdnUVteaNlNb3VnZ2dnUVZ_qqgnZ2d@northdakotat elephone...


Andre Lieven wrote:
That also means that that definition of " facts " would include all of
the
sites about the 9/11 Jewish Conspiracy, and the Moon Landing Hoax...


Books on those subjects also.


What makes print somewhat different is that you have to have some sort of
investment; with the web, you don't even need to own a computer.

Having to put out cash up front in order to use the press helps keep a lot
of really woohoo stuff in the closet.

To figure this out, you'd have to define what exactly what "knowledge" is;
once you go past the bare facts of a subject, any commentary on it become
a matter of interpretation and viewpoint.


A fact would be: the phosphors of your monitor indicate that someone who
claims to be me is telling you that the thermometer in his office says the
combined temperature of the air and thermometer is 78 degrees F.

The truth depends entirely on your point of view. Some folks would say my
office is warm, some would say it's cool. Truth is nothing more than facts
with a spin.

I've probably have the makings of a 300 to 400 pound tree sitting on my
bookshelves, and when sitting on the stool, get to examine the writing on
sheets of paper made from a tree, while flushing other sheets of paper
made from a tree down the toilet.


Having moved some of my books cross country more than once, I'm trying very
hard to find electronic versions of them. Right now I have 67 banker's boxes
in storage with books, and probably 30 similar boxes worth on the shelves.
Not to mention nearly 100 boxes of assorted loose papers, including
thousands of newspaper clippings.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
  #124  
Old May 7th 08, 06:56 PM posted to sci.space.history
Andre Lieven[_3_]
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Posts: 388
Default Soyuz TMA-11 Comes Home, More or Less...

On May 7, 12:05 am, "Scott Hedrick" wrote:
"Andre Lieven" wrote in message

...

Let's not mention "Stargate: Infinity" again...


Agreed. I note that its about to be offered on DVD. I won't be getting
one...


What about the animated Starship Troopers? I've found two VHS with 5
episodes each.


Its all out on DVD, or so dvdpricesearch.com suggests. Theres seven
volumes, a complete series package and a stand alone one disc item.

And, I do have the Space 1999 set and the first season of classic
BSG...


The *only* season of classic BSG.


Well, yes, though I did like the Starbuck episode of the later season.
That lone surviving Cylon stole the show...

" Kill the kid and space the daggit... "

As to Space:1999, I preferred the first season, although having mission
control underground makes far more sense.


Agreed. Way back when that show was still on, I suggested that if they
were to have a third season, it would end with about 10 people, 2
Eagles,
and about 10% of Alpha left intact...

Andre
  #125  
Old May 7th 08, 09:53 PM posted to sci.space.history
Fevric J Glandules[_2_]
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Default Soyuz TMA-11 Comes Home, More or Less...

On Tue, 06 May 2008 13:51:51 -0500, Pat Flannery wrote:

I've probably have the makings of a 300 to 400 pound tree sitting on my
bookshelves, and when sitting on the stool,


You need to get your toilet fixed!

--
One way ticket from Mornington Crescent to Tannhauser Gate please.
  #126  
Old May 8th 08, 10:47 AM posted to sci.space.history
Jan Vorbrüggen[_3_]
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Default Soyuz TMA-11 Comes Home, More or Less...

What makes print somewhat different is that you have to have some sort of
investment; with the web, you don't even need to own a computer.


Yes.

Having to put out cash up front in order to use the press helps keep a lot
of really woohoo stuff in the closet.


I see no evidence of that in a time where conspiracy theories, esoterica
and similar stuff sell, not to say excellently. Hey, Erich von Däniken
made a living out of it starting thirty-something years ago!

Jan
  #127  
Old May 8th 08, 10:50 PM posted to sci.space.history
Scott Hedrick[_2_]
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Posts: 1,159
Default Soyuz TMA-11 Comes Home, More or Less...


"Andre Lieven" wrote in message
...
Well, yes, though I did like the Starbuck episode of the later season.
That lone surviving Cylon stole the show...


I found that as a stand-alone video. Strip a few minutes from each end and
it could slip into the true series.

" Kill the kid and space the daggit... "


Soooooo nice not to see them this second time around (although it's still
nice to see Jane Seymour, in anything or nothing).


As to Space:1999, I preferred the first season, although having mission
control underground makes far more sense.


Agreed. Way back when that show was still on, I suggested that if they
were to have a third season, it would end with about 10 people, 2
Eagles,
and about 10% of Alpha left intact...


Rule #1: stop ****ing off the aliens
Rule #2: when visiting another system, shut the hell up and don't **** off
the aliens
Rule #3: start breeding
Rule #4: when not breeding, better start building replacement Eagles

The Eagles suck as atmospheric craft, but they are just about perfect for
the Moon. We should have seen a lot more mission modules.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
  #128  
Old May 8th 08, 11:15 PM posted to sci.space.history
Scott Hedrick[_2_]
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Posts: 1,159
Default Soyuz TMA-11 Comes Home, More or Less...


"Jan Vorbrüggen" wrote in message
...
What makes print somewhat different is that you have to have some sort of
investment; with the web, you don't even need to own a computer.


Yes.

Having to put out cash up front in order to use the press helps keep a
lot of really woohoo stuff in the closet.


I see no evidence of that in a time where conspiracy theories, esoterica
and similar stuff sell, not to say excellently. Hey, Erich von Däniken
made a living out of it starting thirty-something years ago!


That's because the public is willing to buy it. That doesn't change the fact
that paper and printers cost money.

These days, with POD, it doesn't take very much.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
  #129  
Old May 9th 08, 08:44 AM posted to sci.space.history
OM[_6_]
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Default Soyuz TMA-11 Comes Home, More or Less...

On Thu, 8 May 2008 17:50:31 -0400, "Scott Hedrick"
wrote:

"Andre Lieven" wrote in message
...
Well, yes, though I did like the Starbuck episode of the later season.
That lone surviving Cylon stole the show...


I found that as a stand-alone video. Strip a few minutes from each end and
it could slip into the true series.


....Actually, that episode *did* evolve from a leftover script from
BSG's only season. The ending had the woman and the child
disappearing, and Starbuck making it back in the cobbled together
rocket pod. At the closer, we would learn the woman was from the Ship
of Lights, and needed to have her kid born in a dangerous place with a
hero to save both of them, and Starbuck gets judged as "good" and
possibly worthy of joining the Ship of Lights crew when his time is
done. Which then cuts to Starbuck playing Pyramid and raking in the
cubits :-)

....Also, those flying motorcycles? Built for an episode in
pre-production that didn't get filmed due to the show getting canned.
There were supposed to be three of them, but only two got built and
were put into storage. Had G80 been retroactively aborted, plans were
to use them on "Buck Rogers".

....Personally, I would have gotten a kick out of a revelation that the
Supreme Leader was really Theo and Twiki. Bi-Di-Bi-Di-B-By Your
Command! Bidididi...schmuck!"

OM
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] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
  #130  
Old May 9th 08, 03:07 PM posted to sci.space.history
Jeff Findley
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Default Soyuz TMA-11 Comes Home, More or Less...


"Scott Hedrick" wrote in message
...

Rule #1: stop ****ing off the aliens
Rule #2: when visiting another system, shut the hell up and don't **** off
the aliens
Rule #3: start breeding
Rule #4: when not breeding, better start building replacement Eagles

The Eagles suck as atmospheric craft, but they are just about perfect for
the Moon. We should have seen a lot more mission modules.


I watched the show as a kid and later bought some Space: 1999 episodes on
VHS and some on DVD. My favorite episodes are the ones with different
mission modules and other add-ons to the Eagles. That and I like the probe
ship in Dragon's Domain. The probe ship had a command module similar to the
front end of an Eagle, only bigger.

I think they did a more "realistic" representation of space flight in the
near future than any other TV series before them. Of course, they still had
to break the laws of physics to make the show work...

Jeff
--
A clever person solves a problem.
A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein


 




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