The end of Constellation?

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009, Ian Parker wrote:

On 23 Jan, 10:18, William Elliot wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Ian Parker wrote:
The operation in Gaza was called "Cast Lead". I can't help remembering
that the Shuttle carries 2 tons of the stuff! The issue to be is one
of credibility quite apart from anything else.

Two tons of lead. *What ever for? *Balast?

It is balance. Mistakes were made about the location of the center of
lift. Of couse for stable flight CG and CL must coincide.

Yicks. Two tons of stupidity at $10,000/lb cost of launching.
Did I remember that correctly? Carry on costs $10,000 per pound?

I think though that this is symptomatic of things, The Shuttle is badly
designed.

The next generation space access, instead of redesigning, is adapting
off the shelf shuttle components. Ya man, like dig those vibes. The new
generation lift off will have such fantastic vibrations that it'll take
the crew a half hour to come to their senses. Well, that'll please NASA
as tourists will prefer the rumble seat of Russian Soyutz.

Riddle of the day. Which dream will be more likely,
restarting the economy or lift off of the new space fleet?

Ian Parker writes:

On 23 Jan, 10:18, William Elliot wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Ian Parker wrote:
The operation in Gaza was called "Cast Lead". I can't help remembering
that the Shuttle carries 2 tons of the stuff! The issue to be is one
of credibility quite apart from anything else.

Two tons of lead. =A0What ever for? =A0Balast?

It is balance. Mistakes were made about the location of the center of
lift. Of couse for stable flight CG and CL must coincide.

I think though that this is symtomatic of things, The Shuttle is badly
designed.

Does it affect things that the shuttle does not, in the real
world, carry two tons of lead?

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.s...b19d4bb2?hl=en

--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 23 Jan 2009 10:13:25 -0500, in a place far, far away,
(Joseph Nebus) made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

Ian Parker writes:

On 23 Jan, 10:18, William Elliot wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Ian Parker wrote:
The operation in Gaza was called "Cast Lead". I can't help remembering
that the Shuttle carries 2 tons of the stuff! The issue to be is one
of credibility quite apart from anything else.

Two tons of lead. =A0What ever for? =A0Balast?

It is balance. Mistakes were made about the location of the center of
lift. Of couse for stable flight CG and CL must coincide.

I think though that this is symtomatic of things, The Shuttle is badly
designed.

Does it affect things that the shuttle does not, in the real
world, carry two tons of lead?

It does in Loonyland. That's all that matters to Ian.

On Jan 23, 2:18*am, William Elliot wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Ian Parker wrote:
The operation in Gaza was called "Cast Lead". I can't help remembering
that the Shuttle carries 2 tons of the stuff! The issue to be is one
of credibility quite apart from anything else.

Two tons of lead. *What ever for? *Balast?

It's compensation for a basic design error. Those SSMEs plus most of
everything else in the rear are damn heavy.

It's also much cheaper than having to include an escape pod like
flight deck option that could safely accommodate 9.

~ BG

On Jan 23, 2:51*am, Ian Parker wrote:
On 23 Jan, 10:18, William Elliot wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Ian Parker wrote:
The operation in Gaza was called "Cast Lead". I can't help remembering
that the Shuttle carries 2 tons of the stuff! The issue to be is one
of credibility quite apart from anything else.

Two tons of lead. *What ever for? *Balast?

It is balance. Mistakes were made about the location of the center of
lift. Of couse for stable flight CG and CL must coincide.

I think though that this is symtomatic of things, The Shuttle is badly
designed.

* - Ian Parker

It's obviously compensation for a basic design error. Those SSMEs
plus most of everything else packed into the rear are damn heavy.

At least a couple extra crew members are just in for their added
weight.

It's also much cheaper than having to include an expendable escape/
reentry pod like flight deck option, that could safely accommodate 9
individuals, of which probably could have been accomplished for
something less than 2 tonnes.

Those spendy windows are also not necessary, and that's worth perhaps
at least another tonne.

~ BG

"Ian Parker" wrote in message
...
On 23 Jan, 10:18, William Elliot wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Ian Parker wrote:
The operation in Gaza was called "Cast Lead". I can't help remembering
that the Shuttle carries 2 tons of the stuff! The issue to be is one
of credibility quite apart from anything else.

Two tons of lead. What ever for? Balast?

It is balance. Mistakes were made about the location of the center of
lift. Of couse for stable flight CG and CL must coincide.

No, that will give you neutral horizontal stability. Try again.

Jeff
--
"Many things that were acceptable in 1958 are no longer acceptable today.
My own standards have changed too." -- Freeman Dyson

On Jan 23, 11:55*am, "Jeff Findley"
wrote:
"Ian Parker" wrote in message

...

On 23 Jan, 10:18, William Elliot wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Ian Parker wrote:
The operation in Gaza was called "Cast Lead". I can't help remembering
that the Shuttle carries 2 tons of the stuff! The issue to be is one
of credibility quite apart from anything else.

Two tons of lead. What ever for? Balast?

It is balance. Mistakes were made about the location of the center of
lift. Of couse for stable flight CG and CL must coincide.

No, that will give you neutral horizontal stability. *Try again.

Jeff

It should always be a little butt heavy. The extra nose mass could be
somewhat critical to within +/- 10 kg.

~ BG

On 23 Jan, 15:51, (Rand Simberg) wrote:


* *Does it affect things that the shuttle does not, in the real
world, carry two tons of lead? *

It does in Loonyland. *That's all that matters to Ian.- Hide quoted text -

The main contradiction of Republican land is that they believe in free
enterprise whenever help for the less fortunate/health care is
discussed, yet when space is discussed they eulogise command economics
as if it were the best thing since sliced bread.

The Shuttle cost twice as much per Kg @ LEO as Ariane and considerably
more than the Russian launchers. we were tod that the Shuttle would
herald the era of cheap space flight. These facts have produced a
considerable credibility gap. The perception, which I think Obama and
Gen Gration share is that a stay of 14 days on the Moon is possible by
"commanding" ever increasing resources.

It may be true that frequent flights by completely recoverable
spacecraft would lower costs. Inceased demand lowers costs in
virtually all sectors of the economy. In a free enterprise, as opposed
to a command economy, the frequency of spaceflight is set in the
marketplace. OK we can be imaginative in the way marketplaces are
managed, but we need a space market and it needs to be marketed.

Is tourism a market?

Is Space Solar Power?

Now in the marketplace, and I think I have said this before economies
of scale come, at least in part from rationalization. Now the great
Republican exponents of the free market will not allow a market in
space to operate in the way that other markets operate. We know that
command economies are inefficient. The Shuttle can only exist though
command. Ares can only exist through command. If we had free
enterprise a cheaper alternative would have been found, either that of
Soyuz/Proton/Ariane under license or the great low cost systems the
enthusiasts advocate.

If Blackstar had been persued to the end, even without any military
use, it would have collared the market leaving Ariane, Soyuz and
Proton ultimately bankrupt. GEO could be catered for by tugs. This is
yet another factor that leads me to believe that it did not work.


- Ian Parker

Ian Parker wrote:

:On 23 Jan, 15:51, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
:
: * *Does it affect things that the shuttle does not, in the real
: world, carry two tons of lead? *
:
: It does in Loonyland. *That's all that matters to Ian.- Hide quoted text -
:
:
:The main contradiction of Republican land is that they believe in free
:enterprise whenever help for the less fortunate/health care is
:discussed, yet when space is discussed they eulogise command economics
:as if it were the best thing since sliced bread.
:

Ian REALLY doesn't read what people say, does he?

:
:The Shuttle cost twice as much per Kg @ LEO as Ariane and considerably
:more than the Russian launchers.
:

And so we see the "main contradiction" of the Lefty Loon - US
government effort bad. Point to Yurp and Russian government funded
stuff and proclaim "good capitalist solution".

Usual Parker Prevarication Elided


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

On 24 Jan, 19:04, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Ian Parker wrote:

:On 23 Jan, 15:51, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
:
: * *Does it affect things that the shuttle does not, in the real
: world, carry two tons of lead? *
:
: It does in Loonyland. *That's all that matters to Ian.- Hide quoted text -
:
:
:The main contradiction of Republican land is that they believe in free
:enterprise whenever help for the less fortunate/health care is
:discussed, yet when space is discussed they eulogise command economics
:as if it were the best thing since sliced bread.
:

Ian REALLY doesn't read what people say, does he?

:
:The Shuttle cost twice as much per Kg @ LEO as Ariane and considerably
:more than the Russian launchers.
:

And so we see the "main contradiction" of the Lefty Loon - US
government effort bad. *Point to Yurp and Russian government funded
stuff and proclaim "good capitalist solution".

Usual Parker Prevarication Elided

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
*only stupid."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- Heinrich Heine

What is left and what is right? I used to think the right supported
Capitalism and the left Socialism. It seems however it is the right
that supports Socialism!


- Ian Parker