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JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 22nd 09, 02:52 AM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Jorge R. Frank
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Posts: 2,089
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)

Rand Simberg wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:52:26 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
" made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

On Jan 21, 3:52 pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:
It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.

This reminds me that I have heard that JFK once said privately that he
really didn't care what happened to the program as long as he got re-
elected. Does anyone have a citation for that?


That's not what he said. But he did say that he didn't give a damn
about space, per se.


Here's a link to a page with the audio of the meeting, and a transcript:

http://history.nasa.gov/JFK-Webbconv/index.html

Pertinent excerpts:

....But I do think we ought get it, you know, really clear that the
policy ought to be that this is the top-priority program of the Agency,
and one of the two things, except for defense, the top priority of the
United States government. I think that that is the position we ought to
take. Now, this may not change anything about that schedule, but at
least we ought to be clear, otherwise we shouldn’t be spending this kind
of money because I’m not that interested in space. I think it’s good; I
think we ought to know about it; we’re ready to spend reasonable amounts
of money. But we’re talking about these fantastic expenditures which
wreck our budget and all these other domestic programs and the only
justification for it, in my opinion, to do it in this time or fashion,
is because we hope to beat them and demonstrate that starting behind, as
we did by a couple years, by God, we passed them.

....I think all these programs which contribute to the lunar program
are…come within, or contribute significantly or really in a sense…let’s
put it this way, are essential, put it that way…are essential to the
success of the lunar program, are justified. Those that are not
essential to the lunar program, that help contribute over a broad
spectrum to our preeminence in space, are secondary. That’s my
feeling.
  #12  
Old January 22nd 09, 05:02 AM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)
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Posts: 2,865
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)

"Roger Conroy" wrote in message
...


Derek
Are you seriously saying that the Apollo program was intended right from
the start to be nothing more than a really expensive ****ing contest? I
find that a bit hard to believe.


Depends partly on what you mean by "Apollo" program.

If you mean the one that is popularly thought of, Derek is right. The goal
was to "land a man on the Moon and return him safely before the decade was
out."

Technically, when Apollo 11 splashed down, that goal was completed.

If you refer to the nebulous "Apollo" craft that NASA had some vague
descriptions of before work was started on fulfilling Kennedy's dream then
it was intended to do more.

But that's sort of like the my dreams of building a house before I actually
set my budget.

So I think you have to go with the Kennedy Apollo program, not the fairly
vague handwaving before.




--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.


  #13  
Old January 22nd 09, 05:46 AM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Jorge R. Frank
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Posts: 2,089
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)

Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:
"Roger Conroy" wrote in message
...

Derek
Are you seriously saying that the Apollo program was intended right from
the start to be nothing more than a really expensive ****ing contest? I
find that a bit hard to believe.


Depends partly on what you mean by "Apollo" program.

If you mean the one that is popularly thought of, Derek is right. The goal
was to "land a man on the Moon and return him safely before the decade was
out."

Technically, when Apollo 11 splashed down, that goal was completed.

If you refer to the nebulous "Apollo" craft that NASA had some vague
descriptions of before work was started on fulfilling Kennedy's dream then
it was intended to do more.

But that's sort of like the my dreams of building a house before I actually
set my budget.

So I think you have to go with the Kennedy Apollo program, not the fairly
vague handwaving before.


Or even the less-vague but no-less-wishful handwaving (Apollo
Applications) that ran concurrently with the Kennedy program.
  #14  
Old January 22nd 09, 08:14 AM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Roger Conroy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)


"Jorge R. Frank" wrote in message
...
Rand Simberg wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:52:26 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
" made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

On Jan 21, 3:52 pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:
It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.
This reminds me that I have heard that JFK once said privately that he
really didn't care what happened to the program as long as he got re-
elected. Does anyone have a citation for that?


That's not what he said. But he did say that he didn't give a damn
about space, per se.


Here's a link to a page with the audio of the meeting, and a transcript:

http://history.nasa.gov/JFK-Webbconv/index.html

Pertinent excerpts:

...But I do think we ought get it, you know, really clear that the policy
ought to be that this is the top-priority program of the Agency, and one
of the two things, except for defense, the top priority of the United
States government. I think that that is the position we ought to take.
Now, this may not change anything about that schedule, but at least we
ought to be clear, otherwise we shouldn’t be spending this kind of money
because I’m not that interested in space. I think it’s good; I think we
ought to know about it; we’re ready to spend reasonable amounts of money.
But we’re talking about these fantastic expenditures which wreck our
budget and all these other domestic programs and the only justification
for it, in my opinion, to do it in this time or fashion, is because we
hope to beat them and demonstrate that starting behind, as we did by a
couple years, by God, we passed them.

...I think all these programs which contribute to the lunar program
are…come within, or contribute significantly or really in a sense…let’s
put it this way, are essential, put it that way…are essential to the
success of the lunar program, are justified. Those that are not essential
to the lunar program, that help contribute over a broad spectrum to our
preeminence in space, are secondary. That’s my
feeling.


Pretty conclusive evidence that it really was just a ****ing contest.


  #15  
Old January 22nd 09, 12:52 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 290
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies toeveryone....)

On Jan 21, 5:36*pm, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:46:22 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Jack Linthicum made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:



On Jan 21, 3:52*pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:
"Roger Conroy" wrote:
The Apollo program ended up being just a flash in the pan, nothing of any
serious consequence followed on from it.


It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. *That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.


D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.


http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/


-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL


IIRC there were many programs which were intended to use the Saturn V
and its variants as the heavy booster, Space Shuttle being one, This
combination would have built the ISS in five launches.


There were concepts to do so, but they were hardly "programs."


Ask the people who got paid for doing them.
  #16  
Old January 22nd 09, 02:07 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,311
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 03:52:50 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Jack Linthicum made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

On Jan 21, 5:36*pm, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:46:22 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Jack Linthicum made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:



On Jan 21, 3:52*pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:
"Roger Conroy" wrote:
The Apollo program ended up being just a flash in the pan, nothing of any
serious consequence followed on from it.


It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. *That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.


D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.


http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/


-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL


IIRC there were many programs which were intended to use the Saturn V
and its variants as the heavy booster, Space Shuttle being one, This
combination would have built the ISS in five launches.


There were concepts to do so, but they were hardly "programs."


Ask the people who got paid for doing them.


What would they know about it?

I get paid for doing lots of things, but that doesn't make them a
"program."
  #17  
Old January 22nd 09, 02:15 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 290
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies toeveryone....)

On Jan 22, 8:07*am, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 03:52:50 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Jack Linthicum made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:



On Jan 21, 5:36*pm, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:46:22 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Jack Linthicum made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:


On Jan 21, 3:52*pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:
"Roger Conroy" wrote:
The Apollo program ended up being just a flash in the pan, nothing of any
serious consequence followed on from it.


It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. *That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.


D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.


http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/


-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL


IIRC there were many programs which were intended to use the Saturn V
and its variants as the heavy booster, Space Shuttle being one, This
combination would have built the ISS in five launches.


There were concepts to do so, but they were hardly "programs."


Ask the people who got paid for doing them.


What would they know about it?

I get paid for doing lots of things, but that doesn't make them a
"program."


Look at the NASA budget for that period, if there is a heading for
"advanced devlopment" there is a program.

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4214/app2.html
  #18  
Old January 22nd 09, 02:19 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 290
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies toeveryone....)

On Jan 22, 8:15*am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
On Jan 22, 8:07*am, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:



On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 03:52:50 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Jack Linthicum made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:


On Jan 21, 5:36*pm, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:46:22 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Jack Linthicum made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:


On Jan 21, 3:52*pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:
"Roger Conroy" wrote:
The Apollo program ended up being just a flash in the pan, nothing of any
serious consequence followed on from it.


It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. *That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.


D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.


http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/


-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL


IIRC there were many programs which were intended to use the Saturn V
and its variants as the heavy booster, Space Shuttle being one, This
combination would have built the ISS in five launches.


There were concepts to do so, but they were hardly "programs."


Ask the people who got paid for doing them.


What would they know about it?


I get paid for doing lots of things, but that doesn't make them a
"program."


Look at the NASA budget for that period, if there is a heading for
"advanced devlopment" there is a program.

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4214/app2.html


This one even calls it the Saturn-Apollo Applications (SAA) Program
Office

http://altairvi.blogspot.com/2008/03...y-1966_27.html
  #19  
Old January 22nd 09, 02:45 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,516
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies toeveryone....)

On Jan 22, 8:19�am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
On Jan 22, 8:15�am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:





On Jan 22, 8:07�am, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:


On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 03:52:50 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Jack Linthicum made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:


On Jan 21, 5:36�pm, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:46:22 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Jack Linthicum made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:


On Jan 21, 3:52�pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:
"Roger Conroy" wrote:
The Apollo program ended up being just a flash in the pan, nothing of any
serious consequence followed on from it.


It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. �That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.


D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.


http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/


-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL


IIRC there were many programs which were intended to use the Saturn V
and its variants as the heavy booster, Space Shuttle being one, This
combination would have built the ISS in five launches.


There were concepts to do so, but they were hardly "programs."


Ask the people who got paid for doing them.


What would they know about it?


I get paid for doing lots of things, but that doesn't make them a
"program."


Look at the NASA budget for that period, if there is a heading for
"advanced devlopment" there is a program.


http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4214/app2.html


This one even calls it the Saturn-Apollo Applications (SAA) Program
Office

http://altairvi.blogspot.com/2008/03...ons-summar...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


yeah our country mucked up big time, the vietnam war sucked up all the
money.

if it haDNT BEEN FOR VIETNAM WE COULD OF USED A FRACTION OF THOSE
BUCKS AND GONE TO MARS
  #20  
Old January 22nd 09, 02:56 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 290
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies toeveryone....)

On Jan 22, 8:45*am, " wrote:
On Jan 22, 8:19 am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:



On Jan 22, 8:15 am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:


On Jan 22, 8:07 am, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:


On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 03:52:50 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Jack Linthicum made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:


On Jan 21, 5:36 pm, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:46:22 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Jack Linthicum made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:


On Jan 21, 3:52 pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:
"Roger Conroy" wrote:
The Apollo program ended up being just a flash in the pan, nothing of any
serious consequence followed on from it.


It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.


D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.


http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/


-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL


IIRC there were many programs which were intended to use the Saturn V
and its variants as the heavy booster, Space Shuttle being one, This
combination would have built the ISS in five launches.


There were concepts to do so, but they were hardly "programs."


Ask the people who got paid for doing them.


What would they know about it?


I get paid for doing lots of things, but that doesn't make them a
"program."


Look at the NASA budget for that period, if there is a heading for
"advanced devlopment" there is a program.


http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4214/app2.html


This one even calls it the Saturn-Apollo Applications (SAA) Program
Office


http://altairvi.blogspot.com/2008/03...-summar...Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


yeah our country mucked up big time, the vietnam war sucked up all the
money.

if it haDNT BEEN FOR VIETNAM WE COULD OF USED A FRACTION OF THOSE
BUCKS AND GONE TO MARS


Funny how wars always seem to intervene and reduce the ability to
achieve the perfect society? You would have thought the end of the
Cold War would have brought prosperity and a caring government,
handing out medical care and creating a green environment. Instead we
got the idea of the 50% plus one election and the "on-off" switch
concept of government.
 




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