Launching a small model rocket

One of my friends told me they had a class project at high school where they
built a small rocket measuring about 2 feet tall and used 4 model rocket
engines. The idea was to get it into orbit... now apparently they spent the
whole term calculating everything needed to get it into orbit... and also
put two flares onto the craft on a delay so that when it passes over us
(Perth Australia) they could see it with their telescopes...

Something is a miss here though... for one, the flares would need to be
pretty bright to be seen my even a telescope trying to focus on an object
measuring 4", as in the flare, and then the fact that how can a flare burn
with no oxygen?

Any comments on this? Firstly could it be done and secondly, how the hell
can you accurately predict to within a few inches the orbit of something
like that? There are so many factors to consider during launch that could
alter its assumed orbit... ie a gust of wind or even higher/lower air
pressure than expected... i'm taking a guess here but wouldn't the only way
to calculate this particular orbit be by measuring its distance etc at a few
different points and at regular intervals... in which case the flares were
not active and the telescope would not see them?

I think my friend is full of ****

"Niko Holm" wrote in message
...
One of my friends told me they had a class project at high school where
they
built a small rocket measuring about 2 feet tall and used 4 model rocket
engines. The idea was to get it into orbit... now apparently they spent
the
whole term calculating everything needed to get it into orbit... and also
put two flares onto the craft on a delay so that when it passes over us
(Perth Australia) they could see it with their telescopes...

Something is a miss here though... for one, the flares would need to be
pretty bright to be seen my even a telescope trying to focus on an object
measuring 4", as in the flare, and then the fact that how can a flare burn
with no oxygen?

I believe flares provide their own oxidizer. (Much like bullets.)


Any comments on this? Firstly could it be done and secondly, how the hell
can you accurately predict to within a few inches the orbit of something
like that? There are so many factors to consider during launch that could
alter its assumed orbit... ie a gust of wind or even higher/lower air
pressure than expected... i'm taking a guess here but wouldn't the only
way
to calculate this particular orbit be by measuring its distance etc at a
few
different points and at regular intervals... in which case the flares were
not active and the telescope would not see them?

I think my friend is full of ****

He is. I can guarantee that there's no way a 2' tall rocket using 4 model
rocket engines is going to come close to orbit.

Heck, they'll be lucky to break a few thousand feet. And there's no way
they'll get the required velocity.

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:50:04 +0800, in sci.space.shuttle "Niko Holm"
wrote:

I think my friend is full of ****

Bingo.

"Niko Holm" wrote in message

One of my friends told me they had a class project at high school where
they
built a small rocket measuring about 2 feet tall and used 4 model rocket
engines. The idea was to get it into orbit... now apparently they spent
the
whole term calculating everything needed to get it into orbit... and also
put two flares onto the craft on a delay so that when it passes over us
(Perth Australia) they could see it with their telescopes...

Something is a miss here though... for one, the flares would need to be
pretty bright to be seen my even a telescope trying to focus on an object
measuring 4", as in the flare, and then the fact that how can a flare burn
with no oxygen?

Any comments on this? Firstly could it be done and secondly, how the hell
can you accurately predict to within a few inches the orbit of something
like that? There are so many factors to consider during launch that could
alter its assumed orbit... ie a gust of wind or even higher/lower air
pressure than expected... i'm taking a guess here but wouldn't the only
way
to calculate this particular orbit be by measuring its distance etc at a
few
different points and at regular intervals... in which case the flares were
not active and the telescope would not see them?

I think my friend is full of ****

That would be my guess, too. I'm halfway between trying to keep a straight
face, and wondering whether I'm being suckered into responding. I'm going
to step out on a limb and assume you are actually a student (which school,
by the way?) and are sincere.

First of all: forget about the flare. That's not the problem.

Second, if I were you, I'd ask my friend how he's going to get a two foot
rocket with four model rocket engines to reach 25,000 feet/second, flying
tangentially to the surface of the earth, at over 100 miles in altitude.

I think my friend is full of ****

That would be my guess, too. I'm halfway between trying to keep a
straight
face, and wondering whether I'm being suckered into responding. I'm going
to step out on a limb and assume you are actually a student (which school,
by the way?) and are sincere.

Nah, I haven't been to school since graduation in 1997... but this
supposedly happened around that time too... Warwick Senior High i think it
was... I could be mistaken as we became friends after school had ended and
didnt attend the same one at that...

First of all: forget about the flare. That's not the problem.

Second, if I were you, I'd ask my friend how he's going to get a two foot
rocket with four model rocket engines to reach 25,000 feet/second, flying
tangentially to the surface of the earth, at over 100 miles in altitude.

Yup... it was very hard to believe, just thought I'd get a few more opinions
before disemboweling him As far as my knowledge (or memory of specifics)
goes I wouldn't have been able to disprove him... I can now cheers

Niko

"Niko Holm" wrote in message
...

Yup... it was very hard to believe, just thought I'd get a few more
opinions
before disemboweling him As far as my knowledge (or memory of
specifics)
goes I wouldn't have been able to disprove him... I can now cheers


Well, since he claims to have done the math, as they say:

"Show us the math!"


Niko

"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote:

Well, since he claims to have done the math, as they say:

"Show us the math!"

Haha I could take a guess at his 'maths'

4 Modelrocket Engines plus a slanted launch pad and box'o'matches = Orbiting
rocket

haha :P

No, nothing that small could hold enough fuel to power it at orbital
velocity and to the altitude needed. I'd say that was obvious without the
other stuff.

Who is in charge,? Are they for real?

I recall someone suggesting that you would need a gun fired missile aboard
Concorde with a rocket that started around 1 minute after firing it...

Slight problem with excessive g forces there methinks.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________
__________________________________


"Niko Holm" wrote in message
...
| One of my friends told me they had a class project at high school where
they
| built a small rocket measuring about 2 feet tall and used 4 model rocket
| engines. The idea was to get it into orbit... now apparently they spent
the
| whole term calculating everything needed to get it into orbit... and also
| put two flares onto the craft on a delay so that when it passes over us
| (Perth Australia) they could see it with their telescopes...
|
| Something is a miss here though... for one, the flares would need to be
| pretty bright to be seen my even a telescope trying to focus on an object
| measuring 4", as in the flare, and then the fact that how can a flare burn
| with no oxygen?
|
| Any comments on this? Firstly could it be done and secondly, how the hell
| can you accurately predict to within a few inches the orbit of something
| like that? There are so many factors to consider during launch that could
| alter its assumed orbit... ie a gust of wind or even higher/lower air
| pressure than expected... i'm taking a guess here but wouldn't the only
way
| to calculate this particular orbit be by measuring its distance etc at a
few
| different points and at regular intervals... in which case the flares were
| not active and the telescope would not see them?
|
| I think my friend is full of ****
|
|


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Niko Holm wrote:
One of my friends told me they had a class project at high school where they
built a small rocket measuring about 2 feet tall and used 4 model rocket
snip
I think my friend is full of ****

Me too.
2 feet tall means around (guess) 6cm diameter.
Volume of some 2l, so weight of around 4Kg.
The first problem faced by rockets this small is drag low
down in the atmosphere.

If you halve the size of the rocket, you double the effect of drag.
For the shuttle, drag is almost unimportant, adding only a few percent
to the needed performance.

For tiny rockets, it's one of the major problems.
Using state-of-the art rocket engines (many times better than model
rocket engines) if you just attempt to accellerate upwards at the
same rate as the shuttle, then you end up burning all the fuel quite
early, fighting drag as you go just a bit past mach 2.

You've basically got to cruise up at near mach 1 for quite a while, until
it's worth ditching the first stage (control systems to keep stable for
this long are not trivial).
Then you have to have several stages to get to orbit, for a payload of
maybe a gram, if lucky.
I think it might be possible, but it will involve an investment several
tens of thousands of times more than the likely budget that it sounds
like you have.
With model rocket motors - no.

I think it might be possible, but it will involve an investment several
tens of thousands of times more than the likely budget that it sounds
like you have.
With model rocket motors - no.

As it was a school project, a government school at that, the budget wouldnt
have been more than about $50AUD per student... total in class about 30
students... Yeah, i thought the whole thing sounded too far fetched and now
that all these things have been pointed out I can mention this to my mate...

On a slightly different tangent, did anyone read anything about this thrill
seeker in the US making home made rockets, one of them was built to half
scale and measured about 4meters tall... sounded really good, the idea being
to launch someone up and let them parachute down again... crazy adrenaline
junkies I tell you... it was on space.com and may still be in the
archives... worth a read and wasn't too long ago... maybe 3 months...

Oh yer, I think the guy invented Nerf toys or something similar... too much
money and still a big kid

Niko