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Curves in spacetime violate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 19th 13, 05:19 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Sam Wormley[_2_]
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Default Curves in spacetime violate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

Curves in spacetime violate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

*If* an object traveling through spacetime can loop back in time in a
certain way, then its trajectory can allow a pair of its components
to be measured with perfect accuracy, violating Heisenberg's
uncertainty principle. This new finding involves a particular
trajectory called an open timelike curve (OTC), which is a special
case of a closed timelike curve (CTC), a theoretical concept that has
previously provoked controversy because it raises the possibility of
traveling backwards in time.


According to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, measurements of any
pair of variables must have at least a minimum amount of error. The
most well-known example of the pair of variables is position and
momentum, but the principle applies to any two variables that have a
mathematical relationship which makes them conjugate variables. The
uncertainty principle is thought to be an inherent property of
quantum systems due to their wave-particle duality, rather than any
observational limitations. Although previous studies have found that
CTC models can theoretically violate the uncertainty principle,
nobody knew that this could happen for the special case of an OTC.


Now, physicists Jacques Pienaar, Tim Ralph, and Casey Myers at The
University of Queensland in Australia have theoretically shown that
OTCs can allow scientists to measure a pair of conjugate variables of
a quantum state to an arbitrary degree of accuracy forbidden by the
uncertainty principle. The finding could have implications for
quantum gravity and change the way that scientists view quantum
uncertainty.

Read more at:
http://phys.org/news/2013-02-spaceti...ciple.html#jCp

  #2  
Old February 19th 13, 08:09 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Posts: 8,478
Default Curves in spacetime violate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

On Feb 19, 5:19*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
Curves in spacetime violate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle







*If* an object traveling through spacetime can loop back in time in a
certain way, then its trajectory can allow a pair of its components
to be measured with perfect accuracy, violating Heisenberg's
uncertainty principle. This new finding involves a particular
trajectory called an open timelike curve (OTC), which is a special
case of a closed timelike curve (CTC), a theoretical concept that has
previously provoked controversy because it raises the possibility of
traveling backwards in time.
According to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, measurements of any
pair of variables must have at least a minimum amount of error. The
most well-known example of the pair of variables is position and
momentum, but the principle applies to any two variables that have a
mathematical relationship which makes them conjugate variables. The
uncertainty principle is thought to be an inherent property of
quantum systems due to their wave-particle duality, rather than any
observational limitations. Although previous studies have found that
CTC models can theoretically violate the uncertainty principle,
nobody knew that this could happen for the special case of an OTC.
Now, physicists Jacques Pienaar, Tim Ralph, and Casey Myers at The
University of Queensland in Australia have theoretically shown that
OTCs can allow scientists to measure a pair of conjugate variables of
a quantum state to an arbitrary degree of accuracy forbidden by the
uncertainty principle. The finding could have implications for
quantum gravity and change the way that scientists view quantum
uncertainty.


Read more at:
http://phys.org/news/2013-02-spaceti...rg-uncertainty...


It is a pity and a loss that I cannot find men who can actually
talk,not chant the empirical voodoo as you write here,but actually
discuss what is so different between the empirical agenda and
astronomy proper even though the vicious strain of empiricism attaches
itself to astronomy like a parasite and destroys it,at least
temporarily.

I left the sci.relativity forum once I read the originator's 1920
reason for 'warping' space given that space itself is merely the
background canvas against which all motions and structures are
assessed and subsequently have no 'flexible' quality.First he rejects
stellar islands we now know as galaxies and the appeal to light
leaving stars leading to an impoverished Universe is so facile that
were it not so dominant it would be hilarious -

"This view is not in harmony with the theory of Newton. The latter
theory rather requires that the universe should have a kind of centre
in which the density of the stars is a maximum, and that as we proceed
outwards from this centre the group-density of the stars should
diminish, until finally, at great distances, it is succeeded by an
infinite region of emptiness. The stellar universe ought to be a
finite island in the infinite ocean of space.
This conception is in itself not very satisfactory. It is still less
satisfactory because it leads to the result that the light emitted by
the stars and also individual stars of the stellar system are
perpetually passing out into infinite space, never to return, and
without ever again coming into interaction with other objects of
nature. Such a finite material universe would be destined to become
gradually but systematically impoverished." 1920

http://www.bartleby.com/173/30.html

An astronomer has so much more of a wider view than a
mathematician,even a mathematicians calling himself an astronomer.yet
I have to encounter a single one of them who even understood their own
system such as it is.There have been precious few individuals in the
last few centuries who have called into question the basis for
Newton's agenda and for a number of reasons,some historical,some
technical and some of it relating to talent,none of who have been able
to sort and sift through the details to point out what works and what
does not.Somehow most mathematicians are happy to keep it that way as
your article describes.

Maybe the time for that stuff has come and gone and people are
prepared to make the adjustment to contemporary imaging and its
interpretative power and do a retrospective correction to empiricism
as time goes on but sadly I haven't seen a move in that direction.

  #3  
Old February 19th 13, 08:59 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Posts: 7,018
Default Curves in spacetime violate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

On Feb 19, 9:19*am, Sam Wormley wrote:
Curves in spacetime violate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle


....this reminds me of the books by Roger Penrose, in which he defends
the conjecture that because spacetime's curvature can't be ambiguous,
it's the fact that we're heavy enough to give off gravity that
prevents us from meeting the fate of Schrodinger's cat, thus allowing
us to be conscious.

But isn't string theory taking care of cleaning up the rough edges
between quantum mechanics and general relativity?

John Savard
 




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