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Will humans on Mars or Moon become aliens?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 23rd 04, 07:48 AM
Eric Coldo
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Default Will humans on Mars or Moon become aliens?

When humans live on Mars or Moon for a long time, will there bodies
change and will they and their children become aliens with green, red
or blue skin?

Will humans living on various planets in the solar system become
aliens ?

Maybe humans living on Mars will totally change after 100 or 200 years
into creatures looking like E.T. or the "Alien" ?
  #2  
Old April 23rd 04, 12:49 PM
G=EMC^2 Glazier
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Eric The whole time humans are on Mars they will be in their space
ship,or in their space suits. Their bodies will never touch Mars. They
will be kept warm(68F) Shielded from harmful radiation,and won't stay
long. Mars looks to much like the moon.(boring place) The bottom of our
deepest ocean is a million times more interesting. You need a suit to
stay there also. Bert PS Be nice if someday man can find a
planet where he could walk around in sneakers shorts,and a T-shirt
(Florida gear)

  #3  
Old April 23rd 04, 01:20 PM
F. Kuik
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Eric The whole time humans are on Mars they will be in their space
ship,or in their space suits. Their bodies will never touch Mars. They
will be kept warm(68F) Shielded from harmful radiation,and won't stay
long.


If technology gets better they can stay longer and longer. It's also true
that the human body does change alot in space. Bone structure for example.
So what happends is really to find out yet.

Mars looks to much like the moon.(boring place) The bottom of our
deepest ocean is a million times more interesting. You need a suit to
stay there also. Bert PS Be nice if someday man can find a
planet where he could walk around in sneakers shorts,and a T-shirt
(Florida gear)



  #4  
Old April 23rd 04, 01:32 PM
Peter Webb
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"F. Kuik" wrote in message
...
Eric The whole time humans are on Mars they will be in their space
ship,or in their space suits. Their bodies will never touch Mars. They
will be kept warm(68F) Shielded from harmful radiation,and won't stay
long.


If technology gets better they can stay longer and longer. It's also true
that the human body does change alot in space. Bone structure for example.
So what happends is really to find out yet.


Yeah, but those changes are not inheritable. For there to be changes in
future generations, there must be some form of natural selection. Further,
they must be adaptations which are of benefit prior to child bearing age.

Bone structure is possible but unlikely. Its hard to see how living in a
lower G environment could cause some people to be less fit for
reproduction - a higher G environment would be a different argument
entirely. One possibility is radiation tolerance - I don't know how well we
could shield Martian inhabitants against radiation; it may be that some
natural tolerance to radiation would be of evolutionary benefit on Mars and
would cause some divergence from terrestrial humans.

Its taken 50,000 years for different races on earth to evolve, and we are
still quite obviously a single species. I suspect future life on Mars would
differ from future life on earth by less than (say) the life of an Eskimo
10,000 years ago differs from the life of an Australian Aborigine 10,000
years ago, so the pressure causing evolotionary divergence would be less.



  #5  
Old April 23rd 04, 06:23 PM
Jonathan Silverlight
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In message , Peter Webb
writes

"F. Kuik" wrote in message
...
Eric The whole time humans are on Mars they will be in their space
ship,or in their space suits. Their bodies will never touch Mars. They
will be kept warm(68F) Shielded from harmful radiation,and won't stay
long.


If technology gets better they can stay longer and longer. It's also true
that the human body does change alot in space. Bone structure for example.
So what happends is really to find out yet.


Yeah, but those changes are not inheritable. For there to be changes in
future generations, there must be some form of natural selection. Further,
they must be adaptations which are of benefit prior to child bearing age.

Its taken 50,000 years for different races on earth to evolve, and we are
still quite obviously a single species. I suspect future life on Mars would
differ from future life on earth by less than (say) the life of an Eskimo
10,000 years ago differs from the life of an Australian Aborigine 10,000
years ago, so the pressure causing evolotionary divergence would be less.


Except that we are all living in a 1G gravity field and a given solar
radiation - though only the Australian and his or her African
counterpart takes that unprotected. The Inuit can't even survive in his
chosen environment without artificial aids.
Living on Mars might cause our descendants to grow at the rate of 1 inch
per century. If they decide they like that, they might be 12 feet tall
well before your 10,000 years, and interbreeding will become difficult
:-) Add to that biochemical changes, as they decide to adapt to a lower
oxygen level - perhaps the minimum possible to our current physiology,
or beyond.
--
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  #6  
Old April 24th 04, 02:47 AM
Peter Webb
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"Jonathan Silverlight" wrote
in message ...
In message , Peter Webb
writes

"F. Kuik" wrote in message
...
Eric The whole time humans are on Mars they will be in their space
ship,or in their space suits. Their bodies will never touch Mars.

They
will be kept warm(68F) Shielded from harmful radiation,and won't stay
long.

If technology gets better they can stay longer and longer. It's also

true
that the human body does change alot in space. Bone structure for

example.
So what happends is really to find out yet.


Yeah, but those changes are not inheritable. For there to be changes in
future generations, there must be some form of natural selection.

Further,
they must be adaptations which are of benefit prior to child bearing age.

Its taken 50,000 years for different races on earth to evolve, and we are
still quite obviously a single species. I suspect future life on Mars

would
differ from future life on earth by less than (say) the life of an Eskimo
10,000 years ago differs from the life of an Australian Aborigine 10,000
years ago, so the pressure causing evolotionary divergence would be less.


Except that we are all living in a 1G gravity field and a given solar
radiation - though only the Australian and his or her African
counterpart takes that unprotected. The Inuit can't even survive in his
chosen environment without artificial aids.
Living on Mars might cause our descendants to grow at the rate of 1 inch
per century. If they decide they like that, they might be 12 feet tall
well before your 10,000 years, and interbreeding will become difficult
:-) Add to that biochemical changes, as they decide to adapt to a lower
oxygen level - perhaps the minimum possible to our current physiology,
or beyond.
--


No. If I grow 1" taller due to low gravity, this doesn't mean that my
children *inheret any genes* for being taller. They may grow 1" taller, and
their children 1" taller, and 10,000 years downstream they will still only
be 1" taller than somebody from earth, and if their children returned to
earth after 10,000 years of ancestors living on Mars, they would be no
taller at all.

The only way that changes in a population can affect successive generations
is if they increase the "fitness" - the chances of living to reproductive
age and bearing children. Eskimos are short and fat not because they have
eaten seal meat for 10,000 years, but because the tall skinny ones died of
hypothermia before reproducing. Native africans are black not because they
have had good suntans for thousands of years, but because the white ones
died of melanoma before reproducing (actually, its a little more complicated
than that, but you get the idea). Giraffes do not have long necks because
their ancestors were always stretching their necks, they have long necks
because the ones with short necks died of starvation before reproducing.

So for Martians to have a genetic change which tends to make them taller,
you have to identify a mechanism which confers an evolutionary advantage on
taller Martians - some reason why they are more likely to survive to child
bearing age and reproduce. (Similar to why Giraffe's have long necks). I
could not (and cannot) think of any such mechanism, which is why I said it
would be unlikely. The only example I can think of where there may be an
evolutionary advantage from a genetic change is one I gave in my original
post - tolerance to radiation. I don't think adaptation to lower oxygen will
cause evolutionary pressure, unless there are people dying from asphyxia -
which doesn't sound like my idea of a well run colony.







  #7  
Old April 24th 04, 03:53 AM
Odysseus
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Peter Webb wrote:

[snip]

So for Martians to have a genetic change which tends to make them taller,
you have to identify a mechanism which confers an evolutionary advantage on
taller Martians - some reason why they are more likely to survive to child
bearing age and reproduce. (Similar to why Giraffe's have long necks). I
could not (and cannot) think of any such mechanism, which is why I said it
would be unlikely. The only example I can think of where there may be an
evolutionary advantage from a genetic change is one I gave in my original
post - tolerance to radiation. I don't think adaptation to lower oxygen will
cause evolutionary pressure, unless there are people dying from asphyxia -
which doesn't sound like my idea of a well run colony.


In general to the extent that we can control our environment and care
for those who can't fend for themselves, we cease to be subject to
natural selection as such. Other evolutionary mechanisms, like
sex-selection, may of course remain in play. But our culture
'evolves' much more rapidly than our bodies can, and its transmission
from generation to generation carries as important characteristics of
'human nature' as those determined by our genes.

--
Odysseus
  #8  
Old April 24th 04, 09:48 AM
Robert McCurdy
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Off course they will.
What planet are U from?

After a suitable time of degradation and slavery, some LunaLover (hehehe) will pass laws of equality and a declaration of
independence.

I doubt the Earthlings will wear red though when they invade (star wars?).


Regards Robert
"Start practising Eric..."

"Eric Coldo" wrote in message om...
When humans live on Mars or Moon for a long time, will there bodies
change and will they and their children become aliens with green, red
or blue skin?

Will humans living on various planets in the solar system become
aliens ?

Maybe humans living on Mars will totally change after 100 or 200 years
into creatures looking like E.T. or the "Alien" ?


"..with your phaser - not that!"


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 15/04/2004


  #9  
Old April 24th 04, 01:15 PM
Peter Webb
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"Odysseus" wrote in message
...
Peter Webb wrote:

[snip]

So for Martians to have a genetic change which tends to make them

taller,
you have to identify a mechanism which confers an evolutionary advantage

on
taller Martians - some reason why they are more likely to survive to

child
bearing age and reproduce. (Similar to why Giraffe's have long necks). I
could not (and cannot) think of any such mechanism, which is why I said

it
would be unlikely. The only example I can think of where there may be an
evolutionary advantage from a genetic change is one I gave in my

original
post - tolerance to radiation. I don't think adaptation to lower oxygen

will
cause evolutionary pressure, unless there are people dying from

asphyxia -
which doesn't sound like my idea of a well run colony.


In general to the extent that we can control our environment and care
for those who can't fend for themselves, we cease to be subject to
natural selection as such. Other evolutionary mechanisms, like
sex-selection, may of course remain in play. But our culture
'evolves' much more rapidly than our bodies can, and its transmission
from generation to generation carries as important characteristics of
'human nature' as those determined by our genes.

--


Agreed. The OP asked if our bodies would change and we "would become red or
green". The only environmental variable that I thought we may not be able to
control would be radiation. Of course, without knowing the exact lifestyle
of a Martian colony, this is hard to verify! There may also be nutrient
problems, or problems caused by prolonged exposure to low gravity (which
affect you while you are still in the low gravity environment), or a host of
other things. I do not see these as causing large scale adaptations, as I
expect that Martians will primarily sit in air conditioned buildings
operating machinery - a rather less different environment to how I live
(from our bodies perspective) than running around the tundra wearing seal
skins vs wandering around the Australian outback.

The cultural argument is a far more compelling one, and in this sense
Martians may become "aliens" very quickly indeed. Most SF colonists are
portrayed as WASPS. However, on earth, the views and beliefs of (say) a
Muslim extremist are completely alien (and inexplicable) to a Westerner -
and I assume vice-versa. And, as you say, these changes occur extremely
quickly. Go back to America 50 years ago (1954) and interview a black
teenager. Do the same today. Notice any difference ?



  #10  
Old April 25th 04, 06:29 PM
Odysseus
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Peter Webb wrote:

The cultural argument is a far more compelling one, and in this sense
Martians may become "aliens" very quickly indeed. Most SF colonists are
portrayed as WASPS. However, on earth, the views and beliefs of (say) a
Muslim extremist are completely alien (and inexplicable) to a Westerner -
and I assume vice-versa. And, as you say, these changes occur extremely
quickly. Go back to America 50 years ago (1954) and interview a black
teenager. Do the same today. Notice any difference ?


One of the aspects of Kim Stanley Robinson's _Red Mars_, _Green
Mars_, _Blue Mars_ trilogy I enjoyed most was his depiction of the
arising of new Martian cultures and their divergence from -- and
conflicts with -- those of Earth: much 'hard sci-fi' tends to ignore
such issues.

--
Odysseus
 




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