SNe Ia DATA ARE COMPATIBLE WITH A STABLE UNIVERSE

Dear Marcel Luttgens:

"Marcel Luttgens" wrote in message
om...
\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message
news:niazb.26280$Bk1.7990@fed1read05...
Dear Marcel Luttgens:

"Marcel Luttgens" wrote in message
om...

What is the fate of "old" iron in a B.H. ?

Entropy is conserved, as is the mass deficit represented in forming the
nucleus. Besides, what path exists from inside a BH to the
"steady-state"
Universe?

And also, what happens to iron in a neutron star?

Compressed into neutrons, with an attendant release of energy, presumably.

Don't super massive black holes at (about) the center of galaxies recycle
particles from matter "swallowed" from closely orbiting (neutron) stars?

Actually, the may be scattered about space as well. Yes, the do seem to
swallow, but not relase very much except photons.

And in an eternal universe, proton decay and Hawking evaporation of B.H.
could play a significant role.

I hope we get to go out there and find out. Evaporation is proposed, but
not seen... yet.

David A. Smith

Marcel Luttgens wrote:

And in an eternal universe, proton decay and Hawking
evaporation of B.H. could play a significant role.

Not one proton has yet been observed to decay.

The rate at which matter falls into a black hole is vastly
greater than the rate at which the black hole evaporates.
The larger the black hole becomes, the slower it evaporates.
Equilibrium between the two processes can only occur when there
is essentially no matter falling into black holes that did not
come directly from the evaporation of black holes. So all that
would exist would be black holes and radiation. That situation
might come about many trillions of years from now. Until then,
the amount of matter in black holes increases, and the amount
of matter not in black holes decreases.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

..

Dear Jeff Root:

"Jeff Root" wrote in message
m...
Marcel Luttgens wrote:

And in an eternal universe, proton decay and Hawking
evaporation of B.H. could play a significant role.

Not one proton has yet been observed to decay.

The "stable Universe" theorists are looking for a way to convert iron back
to hydrogen, so that entropy can be beat. His reference to "proton decay"
was refering to the *product* rather than the source (a neutron).

David A. Smith

\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message news:lGPzb.27499$Bk1.471@fed1read05...
Dear Marcel Luttgens:

"Marcel Luttgens" wrote in message
om...
\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message
news:niazb.26280$Bk1.7990@fed1read05...
Dear Marcel Luttgens:

"Marcel Luttgens" wrote in message
om...

What is the fate of "old" iron in a B.H. ?

Entropy is conserved, as is the mass deficit represented in forming the
nucleus. Besides, what path exists from inside a BH to the
"steady-state"
Universe?

And also, what happens to iron in a neutron star?

Compressed into neutrons, with an attendant release of energy, presumably.

Don't super massive black holes at (about) the center of galaxies recycle
particles from matter "swallowed" from closely orbiting (neutron) stars?

Actually, the may be scattered about space as well. Yes, the do seem to
swallow, but not relase very much except photons.

And in an eternal universe, proton decay and Hawking evaporation of B.H.
could play a significant role.

I hope we get to go out there and find out. Evaporation is proposed, but
not seen... yet.

David A. Smith

Hi David,

You asked: "In a Universe that is so dominated by the second law of
thermodynamics, how do you propose for new hydrogen to be created from
"old" iron?"

I proposed:

- Iron is transformed into neutrons in neutron stars
- Neutron stars can interact with "big" BH, which then emit magnetized
jets
of high-energy particles coming presumably from the same neutron
stars.
- Iron is transformed into "something" in BH
- BH evaporate more or less quickly according to their mass, according
to
Hawking, thus recycling iron and other elements.
- Protons in iron could also decay. This takes *much* time, but time
doesn't
count in an eternal universe.

You see, Nature can easily bypass the second law of thermodynamics.
Unfortunately, the BB paradigm still seems to "sterilize" the brain of
many cosmologists. :-)

Marcel Luttgens

Marcel Luttgens wrote:

\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message news:lGPzb.27499$Bk1.471@fed1read05...
Dear Marcel Luttgens:

"Marcel Luttgens" wrote in message
om...
\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message
news:niazb.26280$Bk1.7990@fed1read05...
Dear Marcel Luttgens:

"Marcel Luttgens" wrote in message
om...

What is the fate of "old" iron in a B.H. ?

Entropy is conserved, as is the mass deficit represented in forming the
nucleus. Besides, what path exists from inside a BH to the
"steady-state"
Universe?

And also, what happens to iron in a neutron star?

Compressed into neutrons, with an attendant release of energy, presumably.

Don't super massive black holes at (about) the center of galaxies recycle
particles from matter "swallowed" from closely orbiting (neutron) stars?

Actually, the may be scattered about space as well. Yes, the do seem to
swallow, but not relase very much except photons.

And in an eternal universe, proton decay and Hawking evaporation of B.H.
could play a significant role.

I hope we get to go out there and find out. Evaporation is proposed, but
not seen... yet.

David A. Smith

Hi David,

You asked: "In a Universe that is so dominated by the second law of
thermodynamics, how do you propose for new hydrogen to be created from
"old" iron?"

I proposed:

- Iron is transformed into neutrons in neutron stars
- Neutron stars can interact with "big" BH, which then emit magnetized
jets of high-energy particles coming presumably from the same neutron
stars.
- Iron is transformed into "something" in BH
- BH evaporate more or less quickly according to their mass, according
to Hawking, thus recycling iron and other elements.
- Protons in iron could also decay. This takes *much* time, but time
doesn't count in an eternal universe.

You see, Nature can easily bypass the second law of thermodynamics.

Nice. So now what you have to do is the following:
take some numbers from the literature (abundance of neutron stars
and black holes, intensity of Hawking radiation, and so on), and,
based on this, calculate how the abundances of the elements should be
in the universe. Then compare to experimental observations. Until your
model can't make quantitative predictions which agree with the
observation,
you don't have a point.


Unfortunately, the BB paradigm still seems to "sterilize" the brain of
many cosmologists. :-)

Explain the CMBR. Your so-called explanation that it comes from star
light
doesn't make sense, as I have explained in detail. You ignored the
counterarguments.


Bye,
Bjoern

David A. Smith replied to Jeff Root:

Marcel Luttgens wrote:

And in an eternal universe, proton decay and Hawking
evaporation of B.H. could play a significant role.

Not one proton has yet been observed to decay.

The "stable Universe" theorists are looking for a way to convert
iron back to hydrogen, so that entropy can be beat. His reference
to "proton decay" was refering to the *product* rather than the
source (a neutron).

Ah. I should have thought about it before I wrote, and might
have realized that proton decay wouldn't give him anything he
wants. I take it that his source of protons is the Hawking
radiation. Any idea where he got the term "proton decay"?
I jumped to the rash conclusion that he meant "decay of protons"
in part because I've visited the proton decay detector at the
bottom of the Soudan iron mine in northern Minnesota, more than
2000 feet below ground level. They should be able to detect
proton decay even if the half-life is 10^32 years.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

..

Dear Marcel Luttgens:

"Marcel Luttgens" wrote in message
om...
\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message
news:lGPzb.27499$Bk1.471@fed1read05...
....
You asked: "In a Universe that is so dominated by the second law of
thermodynamics, how do you propose for new hydrogen to be created from
"old" iron?"

I proposed:

- Iron is transformed into neutrons in neutron stars
- Neutron stars can interact with "big" BH, which then emit magnetized
jets
of high-energy particles coming presumably from the same neutron
stars.

Do you have a citation for this? I am not aware that neutron stars are
necessarily located close to black holes.

- Iron is transformed into "something" in BH

Not even required. It can stay iron.

- BH evaporate more or less quickly according to their mass, according
to
Hawking, thus recycling iron and other elements.

Still not observed, only proposed.

- Protons in iron could also decay. This takes *much* time, but time
doesn't
count in an eternal universe.

You have a couple of problems with this scenario. There is still a net
deficit in energy, even with all that a BH and a neutron star represents.
Our sun is losing 1 part in 10^14 (annually I think), which is broadcast to
the Universe at large. This would be more or less typical of the stars in
the Universe. This is not gained back in Hawking radiation, nor in mass
jets dropped onto an event horizon.

Also, material stripped off any kind of star by a BH, is destined for the
deep plunge. You may create protons, but they get consumed too.

You see, Nature can easily bypass the second law of thermodynamics.

No, she didn't. She doesn't even make all the molecules of air in your
room jump to one side, although this is statistically possible.

Unfortunately, the BB paradigm still seems to "sterilize" the brain of
many cosmologists. :-)

Reality is not as simple as you would choose to believe. Mankind would
like to believe he could bequeath an everlasting Universe to his progeny.
But they'll have to live with what we have now, plus a little more
disorder.

The fuse is lit...

David A. Smith

Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote in message ...
Marcel Luttgens wrote:

Hi David,

You asked: "In a Universe that is so dominated by the second law of
thermodynamics, how do you propose for new hydrogen to be created from
"old" iron?"

I proposed:

- Iron is transformed into neutrons in neutron stars
- Neutron stars can interact with "big" BH, which then emit magnetized
jets of high-energy particles coming presumably from the same neutron
stars.
- Iron is transformed into "something" in BH
- BH evaporate more or less quickly according to their mass, according
to Hawking, thus recycling iron and other elements.
- Protons in iron could also decay. This takes *much* time, but time
doesn't count in an eternal universe.

You see, Nature can easily bypass the second law of thermodynamics.

Nice. So now what you have to do is the following:
take some numbers from the literature (abundance of neutron stars
and black holes, intensity of Hawking radiation, and so on), and,
based on this, calculate how the abundances of the elements should be
in the universe. Then compare to experimental observations. Until your
model can't make quantitative predictions which agree with the
observation, you don't have a point.

My point is that all elements, including iron, can be recycled into protons,
hence that we can't exclude the hypothesis of a stable universe.


Explain the CMBR. Your so-called explanation that it comes from star
light doesn't make sense, as I have explained in detail. You ignored the
counterarguments.

According to Jim Jastrzebski ( http://www.geocities.com/wlodekj/sci/3261.htm ),
"The cosmic background radiation is thermal radiation of the non luminous
matter of the universe heated by the redshifted starlight."
This looks plausible to me.

Marcel Luttgens

\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message news:ZSaAb.27738$Bk1.10573@fed1read05...
Dear Marcel Luttgens:

"Marcel Luttgens" wrote in message
om...
\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message
news:lGPzb.27499$Bk1.471@fed1read05...
...
You asked: "In a Universe that is so dominated by the second law of
thermodynamics, how do you propose for new hydrogen to be created from
"old" iron?"

I proposed:

- Iron is transformed into neutrons in neutron stars
- Neutron stars can interact with "big" BH, which then emit magnetized
jets of high-energy particles coming presumably from the same neutron
stars.

Do you have a citation for this? I am not aware that neutron stars are
necessarily located close to black holes.

Not necessarily, but statistically, some of them should be close
enough.

There is another possibility, the existence of so-called mini BH, see
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994446

Those mini BH would recycle for instance gamma rays emitted by the
interaction
between stars and massive BH into elementary particles.

"Exploding black holes rain down on Earth

19:00 03 December 03

Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free
issues.

Are mini black holes raining down through the Earth's atmosphere? It
is possible,
says a team of physicists. They think this could explain mysterious
observations
from mountain-top experiments over the past 30 years.

Ordinary black holes form when stars explode at the end of their
lives.
The heavy stellar core can collapse into a superdense "singularity"
whose gravity
is so strong that nothing - not even light - can escape.

If some of physicists' favourite theories about extra dimensions are
correct,
it would also be possible for high-energy cosmic-ray particles from
space to create
black holes when they collide with molecules in the Earth's atmosphere
(New Scientist print edition, 29 September 2001).

These black holes would be invisibly small, with a mass of only 10
micrograms or so.
And they would be so unstable that they would explode in a burst of
particles
within around a billion-billion-billionth of a second."


- Iron is transformed into "something" in BH

Not even required. It can stay iron.

In a "singularity" ?


- BH evaporate more or less quickly according to their mass, according
to Hawking, thus recycling iron and other elements.

Still not observed, only proposed.

But possible.


- Protons in iron could also decay. This takes *much* time, but time
doesn't count in an eternal universe.

You have a couple of problems with this scenario. There is still a net
deficit in energy, even with all that a BH and a neutron star represents.
Our sun is losing 1 part in 10^14 (annually I think), which is broadcast to
the Universe at large. This would be more or less typical of the stars in
the Universe. This is not gained back in Hawking radiation, nor in mass
jets dropped onto an event horizon.

I meant that iron could disintegrate via proton decay.


Also, material stripped off any kind of star by a BH, is destined for the
deep plunge. You may create protons, but they get consumed too.

Of course.


You see, Nature can easily bypass the second law of thermodynamics.

No, she didn't. She doesn't even make all the molecules of air in your
room jump to one side, although this is statistically possible.

Iow, you prefer to ignore mechanisms like those mentioned above.


Unfortunately, the BB paradigm still seems to "sterilize" the brain of
many cosmologists. :-)

Reality is not as simple as you would choose to believe. Mankind would
like to believe he could bequeath an everlasting Universe to his progeny.
But they'll have to live with what we have now, plus a little more
disorder.


Reality is simple for BB proponents. For them, our universe was born
13.7 Gy
ago, which is not much more than twice the age of the Earth, even if
they have to
constantly adjust their anthropocentric theory to new observations.

The fuse is lit...

David A. Smith

Marcel Luttgens

(Jeff Root) wrote in message om...
Marcel Luttgens wrote:

And in an eternal universe, proton decay and Hawking
evaporation of B.H. could play a significant role.

Not one proton has yet been observed to decay.

Of course not, but we observe neutrinos or other possible decay products.


The rate at which matter falls into a black hole is vastly
greater than the rate at which the black hole evaporates.
The larger the black hole becomes, the slower it evaporates.

The evaporation rate depends on the mass of the BH.
Many of them are probably collapsed massive stars.
Smaller BH will evaporate rather quickly. Look at
http://www.alcyone.com/max/writing/e...aporation.html
For instance, a BH of 10^9 kg will completely evaporate in about
10^11 s, or 3170 years.

Equilibrium between the two processes can only occur when there
is essentially no matter falling into black holes that did not
come directly from the evaporation of black holes. So all that
would exist would be black holes and radiation. That situation
might come about many trillions of years from now. Until then,
the amount of matter in black holes increases, and the amount
of matter not in black holes decreases.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Marcel Luttgens