![]() |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
Ron (or somebody else of the same name) wrote in message
thusly: Because of the near-exact six-month period, the asteroid should be observable again in nearly the same spot in the sky next May, having gone around the Sun twice while Earth will have made only one circuit. Presumably inferior conjunction occurs every year. Always in May, or does it slowly wander through the year? Has a transit schedule been worked out? Would a transit of something so small, be observable with current technology? -- Paul Townsend I put it down there, and when I went back to it, there it was GONE! Interchange the alphabetic elements to reply |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
In article ,
Prai Jei wrote: Ron (or somebody else of the same name) wrote in message thusly: Because of the near-exact six-month period, the asteroid should be observable again in nearly the same spot in the sky next May, having gone around the Sun twice while Earth will have made only one circuit. Presumably inferior conjunction occurs every year. Always in May, or does it slowly wander through the year? It's too early to tell - refined orbital elements are needed before one can conclude whether this body is in resonance with the Earth or not. Has a transit schedule been worked out? Would a transit of something so small, be observable with current technology? It would definitely be too small to observe in transit: the apparent diameter of this body, when it's closest to the Earth, is expected to be between 0.03 and 0.06 arc seconds. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se WWW: http://www.stjarnhimlen.se/ http://home.tiscali.se/pausch/ |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
In article ,
(Paul Schlyter) writes: It would definitely be too small to observe in transit: the apparent diameter of this body, when it's closest to the Earth, is expected to be between 0.03 and 0.06 arc seconds. Are you sure that's too small? What's the angular resolution of solar telescopes these days? Observing a transit doesn't require resolving the asteroid disk, only detecting the brightness decrease it causes. That depends on signal to noise, which is probably limited by variations in the solar surface brightness. I don't know the numbers, but it isn't obvious to me that the observation is impossible. Even if a transit is observable, I'm not sure what its scientific value would be. Presumably it would determine the asteroid diameter, but is there much value in that? On the other hand, if a solar telescope is observing the Sun anyway, you get the transit observation "for free," so why not make use of it? -- Steve Willner Phone 617-495-7123 Cambridge, MA 02138 USA (Please email your reply if you want to be sure I see it; include a valid Reply-To address to receive an acknowledgement. Commercial email may be sent to your ISP.) |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
In article , (Steve Willner) writes:
In article , (Paul Schlyter) writes: It would definitely be too small to observe in transit: the apparent diameter of this body, when it's closest to the Earth, is expected to be between 0.03 and 0.06 arc seconds. Are you sure that's too small? What's the angular resolution of solar telescopes these days? Observing a transit doesn't require resolving the asteroid disk, only detecting the brightness decrease it causes. That depends on signal to noise, which is probably limited by variations in the solar surface brightness. I don't know the numbers, but it isn't obvious to me that the observation is impossible. Currently, solar telescopes using state of the art adaptive optics systems are achieving resolutions on the order of 0.15 arc seconds over relatively small fields of view. The solar telescopes producing the best images have effective diameters of about 1 meter. The proposed Advanced Technology Solar Telescope (ATST) is a 4 meter class telescope designed to have a resolution of 0.03 arc seconds at 550 nm. The contrast of the granular structures on the Sun is a few percent. Many solar observations are photon limited and signal to noise suffers from a lack of photons. This is due to a lot of our observations are taken at very high spectral resolution (spectrographs having a spectral resolution of delta lambda/lambda 1,000,000 are not uncommon and imaging systems having a spectral resolution of delta lambda/lambda on the order of 250,000 exist). An additional complication is that we also desire very short exposure times (a few milliseconds) to reduce image blur due to seeing and to properly sample the changes with time of solar structure. Even if a transit is observable, I'm not sure what its scientific value would be. Presumably it would determine the asteroid diameter, but is there much value in that? On the other hand, if a solar telescope is observing the Sun anyway, you get the transit observation "for free," so why not make use of it? Transits and eclipses are useful to measure scattered light in our optical systems. In any case, I don't think a transit of a body 0.06 arc seconds in diameter could be seen anytime in the foreseeable future. -- Steve Willner Phone 617-495-7123 Cambridge, MA 02138 USA (Please email your reply if you want to be sure I see it; include a valid Reply-To address to receive an acknowledgement. Commercial email may be sent to your ISP.) __________________________________________________ ______________________ Craig A. Gullixson Instrument Engineer INTERNET: National Solar Observatory/Sac. Peak PHONE: (505) 434-7065 Sunspot, NM 88349 USA FAX: (505) 434-7029 |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
In article ,
(Craig Gullixson) writes: Currently, solar telescopes using state of the art adaptive optics systems are achieving resolutions on the order of 0.15 arc seconds over relatively small fields of view. The solar telescopes producing the best images have effective diameters of about 1 meter. The proposed Advanced Technology Solar Telescope (ATST) is a 4 meter class telescope designed to have a resolution of 0.03 arc seconds at 550 nm. Thanks. I hadn't heard about ATST. Amazing! The contrast of the granular structures on the Sun is a few percent. Many solar observations are photon limited and signal to noise suffers from a lack of photons. This is due to a lot of our observations are taken at very high spectral resolution (spectrographs having a spectral resolution of delta lambda/lambda 1,000,000 are not uncommon and imaging systems having a spectral resolution of delta lambda/lambda on the order of 250,000 exist). For transit observations of an asteroid -- the original topic of this thread -- presumably one would use a broad bandwidth. Of course that precludes the telescope's normal program so there would have to be scientific merit to a transit observation for it to be considered for scheduling. I must admit that for a nighttime astronomer like me, the concept of solar observations being photon-starved is a bit mind-boggling. (Not that I doubt you!) An additional complication is that we also desire very short exposure times (a few milliseconds) to reduce image blur due to seeing and to properly sample the changes with time of solar structure. For transit observations, many minutes or hours of data could be added together. All in all, it seems the observations would be limited by the contrast of the solar surface. Transits and eclipses are useful to measure scattered light in our optical systems. That seems a hard way to do it, although I don't suppose there are any easy ways. In any case, I don't think a transit of a body 0.06 arc seconds in diameter could be seen anytime in the foreseeable future. Based on what you have written above, observing such a transit seems trivial for ATST. The asteroid in transit would be fully black for the equivalent of four spatial resolution elements. Even with current solar telescopes, the observation looks possible. The brightness in a single resolution element would be diminished by 16%, several times the contrast fluctuations, and this location of diminished brightness would cross the solar disk in a predictable way. Wouldn't you expect that to be detectable? Mind you, I'm not advocating for or against a potential observation, just wondering about feasibility. -- Steve Willner Phone 617-495-7123 Cambridge, MA 02138 USA (Please email your reply if you want to be sure I see it; include a valid Reply-To address to receive an acknowledgement. Commercial email may be sent to your ISP.) |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
In article , (Steve Willner) writes:
In article , (Craig Gullixson) writes: Currently, solar telescopes using state of the art adaptive optics systems are achieving resolutions on the order of 0.15 arc seconds over relatively small fields of view. The solar telescopes producing the best images have effective diameters of about 1 meter. The proposed Advanced Technology Solar Telescope (ATST) is a 4 meter class telescope designed to have a resolution of 0.03 arc seconds at 550 nm. Thanks. I hadn't heard about ATST. Amazing! The contrast of the granular structures on the Sun is a few percent. Many solar observations are photon limited and signal to noise suffers from a lack of photons. This is due to a lot of our observations are taken at very high spectral resolution (spectrographs having a spectral resolution of delta lambda/lambda 1,000,000 are not uncommon and imaging systems having a spectral resolution of delta lambda/lambda on the order of 250,000 exist). For transit observations of an asteroid -- the original topic of this thread -- presumably one would use a broad bandwidth. Of course that precludes the telescope's normal program so there would have to be scientific merit to a transit observation for it to be considered for scheduling. Broad band for us tends to be about 1 nm. Remember we are also geared for high temporal resolution, so that constrains the maximum bandwidths we use. Broad band in the nighttime sense, 10 to 100 nm, can break optics and cause flames in this business. I must admit that for a nighttime astronomer like me, the concept of solar observations being photon-starved is a bit mind-boggling. (Not that I doubt you!) I started out on the dark side, so it suprised me also. An additional complication is that we also desire very short exposure times (a few milliseconds) to reduce image blur due to seeing and to properly sample the changes with time of solar structure. For transit observations, many minutes or hours of data could be added together. All in all, it seems the observations would be limited by the contrast of the solar surface. You also have scattered light from the atmosphere, scattered light from the telescope and instrumentation. Even with AO, very good seeing would be required to achieve 0.03 arcsecond resolution. Finally, the surface structure of the sun changes with time. Transits and eclipses are useful to measure scattered light in our optical systems. That seems a hard way to do it, although I don't suppose there are any easy ways. In any case, I don't think a transit of a body 0.06 arc seconds in diameter could be seen anytime in the foreseeable future. Based on what you have written above, observing such a transit seems trivial for ATST. The asteroid in transit would be fully black for the equivalent of four spatial resolution elements. Even with current solar telescopes, the observation looks possible. The brightness in a single resolution element would be diminished by 16%, several times the contrast fluctuations, and this location of diminished brightness would cross the solar disk in a predictable way. Wouldn't you expect that to be detectable? I think it would be really tough. If the seeing was good and the atmospheric scatter was really small and the orbit of the object was known well enough that one could blind track the object and sum a bunch of images, perhaps it could be done with ATST. Mind you, I'm not advocating for or against a potential observation, just wondering about feasibility. -- Steve Willner Phone 617-495-7123 Cambridge, MA 02138 USA (Please email your reply if you want to be sure I see it; include a valid Reply-To address to receive an acknowledgement. Commercial email may be sent to your ISP.) __________________________________________________ ______________________ Craig A. Gullixson Instrument Engineer INTERNET: National Solar Observatory/Sac. Peak PHONE: (505) 434-7065 Sunspot, NM 88349 USA FAX: (505) 434-7029 |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Orbital Mechanics | JOE HECHT | Space Shuttle | 7 | July 21st 04 10:27 PM |
Sedna (2003 VB12) | Ron | Astronomy Misc | 1 | March 19th 04 12:44 PM |
Space Calendar - February 27, 2004 | Ron | Astronomy Misc | 1 | February 27th 04 08:18 PM |
Orbit for Hermes Dynamically Linked from 1937 to 2003 | Ron Baalke | Science | 0 | October 17th 03 03:03 AM |
Ed Lu Letter from Space #6 | Jacques van Oene | Space Station | 0 | July 4th 03 12:10 PM |