Once and for all...are humans or robots better for Mars?

I see some NASA talking heads are out pushing a manned trip
to Mars yet again.

This debate isn't even close.

Loosely speaking, putting men on Mars is a Forty year long
$Trillion dollar (or)deal. And succeeds in putting a dozen
or so eyes on the surface for exploration.

Losely speaking, rovers take Four years or so, and cost a
$Billion dollars. And succeeds in putting ...how many eyes
on the surface of Mars?

"NASA recorded 109 million hits on its home page and related
Web sites during the 24-hour period coinciding with the late
Saturday landing of Spirit on Mars. Nearly 17 hours after the
successful landing, that figure had more than doubled.."
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/4...w_web_traffic/

Rovers put ....MILLIONS of eyes on the planet for exploration
all sharing a /common experience/ and as if they were ...there.

If you want humanity to care, NASA needs to bring everyone
along for the ride. Not just six or so. A manned mission to Mars
only benefits Lockheed et all. Rovers benefit the ...public.

We can place the notion of a manned mission to Mars along with
the other Great Scientific Scams of all time.Scams like a super collider
or gravity wave detectors or neutrino tanks or fusion.

Scams which have as their sole purpose to create a project
that absolutely maximizes the amount of time and money
wasted. While absolutely minimizing the potential
accomplishments.

What a great (corrupt) business plan that would~

At least NASA still dares, daring to go for
the ultimate con-job.


Jonathan


s

On 1/19/11 7:59 PM, Jonathan wrote:

I see some NASA talking heads are out pushing a manned trip
to Mars yet again.

This debate isn't even close.

Loosely speaking, putting men on Mars is a Forty year long
$Trillion dollar (or)deal. And succeeds in putting a dozen
or so eyes on the surface for exploration.

Losely speaking, rovers take Four years or so, and cost a
$Billion dollars. And succeeds in putting ...how many eyes
on the surface of Mars?

When those eyes can pick up a rock, break it open with an appropriate
tool, run requisite tests on it, run over the next hill to check
something at a speed somewhat faster than a drugged snail, notice
something about the rock based on its heft or other details not easily
gotten over a remote, time-lagged link, and the billion other things
that a human being can do without even pausing to wonder how they did
it, yes, you might have a point.

Rovers are wonderful tools, but they are SUBSTITUTES -- and very poor
substitutes -- for human beings on-site.

Perhaps in 20 or 30 years the rovers may start to be smart enough and
competent enough to make human beings less impressive by comparison. But
if you were to list out all the tests and conditions you would LIKE to
have your rover handle, you'd find that the number it CAN handle is a
tiny, tiny, tiny subset of those things that a human being with a
rover-equivalent in modern tools can do.

Now, is that worth the cost? I dunno. Possibly, possibly not.

But the competition is much, much closer than you'd like to think.




--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" wrote:

When those eyes can pick up a rock, break it open with an appropriate
tool, run requisite tests on it, run over the next hill to check
something at a speed somewhat faster than a drugged snail, notice
something about the rock based on its heft or other details not easily
gotten over a remote, time-lagged link, and the billion other things
that a human being can do without even pausing to wonder how they did
it, yes, you might have a point.

ISTR, about a year into their mission(s), Steven Squires (head honcho
of the rover program) being quoted as saying that a human geologist
could do what either rover had done in a year - in thirty days.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" wrote:

When those eyes can pick up a rock, break it open with an appropriate
tool, run requisite tests on it, run over the next hill to check
something at a speed somewhat faster than a drugged snail, notice
something about the rock based on its heft or other details not easily
gotten over a remote, time-lagged link, and the billion other things
that a human being can do without even pausing to wonder how they did
it, yes, you might have a point.

ISTR, about a year into their mission(s), Steven Squires (head honcho
of the rover program) being quoted as saying that a human geologist
could do what either rover had done in a year - in thirty days.


That's indeed correct, Derek. Steve has made that comment on more than one
occasion. What took Spirit and Opportunity years to do could be done by
Humans in weeks. And will be done. In time. where robots go, people
inevitably follow-Ranger, Surveyor, Lunar Orbiter, then Apollo. It'll happen
with Mars. After lunar return, which a successor administration (hopefully
in 2013) will put back on NASA's official agenda.

On 1/20/2011 12:32 AM, Matt Wiser wrote:


That's indeed correct, Derek. Steve has made that comment on more than one
occasion. What took Spirit and Opportunity years to do could be done by
Humans in weeks. And will be done. In time. where robots go, people
inevitably follow-Ranger, Surveyor, Lunar Orbiter, then Apollo. It'll happen
with Mars. After lunar return, which a successor administration (hopefully
in 2013) will put back on NASA's official agenda.

Your basing your rule on a single example...the Moon.
I'm waiting for the manned flights to Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn,
Uranus, and Neptune. ;-)

Pat

In article
tatelephone,
says...

On 1/20/2011 12:32 AM, Matt Wiser wrote:


That's indeed correct, Derek. Steve has made that comment on more than one
occasion. What took Spirit and Opportunity years to do could be done by
Humans in weeks. And will be done. In time. where robots go, people
inevitably follow-Ranger, Surveyor, Lunar Orbiter, then Apollo. It'll happen
with Mars. After lunar return, which a successor administration (hopefully
in 2013) will put back on NASA's official agenda.

Your basing your rule on a single example...the Moon.
I'm waiting for the manned flights to Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn,
Uranus, and Neptune. ;-)

True, there will always be places where humans can't go due to the
extreme environment (i.e. on earth, unmanned submarines could arguably
dive deeper and explore tighter spaces than any manned vehicle). But
Mars is especially attractive because it's conditions are quite suitable
for human exploration.

Jeff
--
"Had Constellation actually been focused on building an Earth-Moon
transportation system, it might have survived. The decision to have it
first build a costly and superfluous Earth-to-orbit transportation
system (Ares I) was a fatal mistake.", Henry Spencer 1/2/2011

On Jan 20, 4:03*am, Pat Flannery wrote:

I'm waiting for the manned flights to Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn,
Uranus, and Neptune. ;-)

Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune are right out.

A man could set foot on Mercury at night, after sunset.

A man could set foot on Pluto.

Would it be worth doing? Probably not, until space exploration had
advanced to a very great degree.

But Mars, like the Moon, is a reasonable destination for human
astronauts. Whether soon, or in the distant future, is the only real
question.

John Savard

"Matt Wiser" wrote:


"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" wrote:

When those eyes can pick up a rock, break it open with an appropriate
tool, run requisite tests on it, run over the next hill to check
something at a speed somewhat faster than a drugged snail, notice
something about the rock based on its heft or other details not easily
gotten over a remote, time-lagged link, and the billion other things
that a human being can do without even pausing to wonder how they did
it, yes, you might have a point.

ISTR, about a year into their mission(s), Steven Squires (head honcho
of the rover program) being quoted as saying that a human geologist
could do what either rover had done in a year - in thirty days.


That's indeed correct, Derek. Steve has made that comment on more than one
occasion. What took Spirit and Opportunity years to do could be done by
Humans in weeks. And will be done. In time. where robots go, people
inevitably follow-Ranger, Surveyor, Lunar Orbiter, then Apollo. It'll happen
with Mars. After lunar return, which a successor administration (hopefully
in 2013) will put back on NASA's official agenda.

The problem to date hasn't been various administrations putting or not
putting Bold Goals onto NASA's official agenda - it's been the utter
lack of any actual follow up (funding, political support) to said Bold
Goals.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

On 1/20/2011 2:29 AM, Derek Lyons wrote:

The problem to date hasn't been various administrations putting or not
putting Bold Goals onto NASA's official agenda - it's been the utter
lack of any actual follow up (funding, political support) to said Bold
Goals.

Well, we went to the Moon and did the other thing (the Vietnam
War)...and we looked the Moon over...and found out it was boring,
lifeless, very expensive to go to, and very hostile to human life.
None of that will have changed if we go back there.
Mars is a slight improvement on the Moon, but a lot more difficult and
expensive to get to and come back from.
You want to see further manned exploration of the Moon, or manned
flights to Mars, figure out a way for someone outside of the aerospace
companies building the spacecraft to go there to make a buck off of it.

Pat

On Jan 20, 1:32*am, "Matt Wiser" wrote:
"Derek Lyons" wrote in message

...

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" wrote:

When those eyes can pick up a rock, break it open with an appropriate
tool, run requisite tests on it, run over the next hill to check
something at a speed somewhat faster than a drugged snail, notice
something about the rock based on its heft or other details not easily
gotten over a remote, time-lagged link, and the billion other things
that a human being can do without even pausing to wonder how they did
it, yes, you might have a point.

ISTR, about a year into their mission(s), Steven Squires (head honcho
of the rover program) being quoted as saying that a human geologist
could do what either rover had done in a year - in thirty days.

That's indeed correct, Derek. Steve has made that comment on more than one
occasion. What took Spirit and Opportunity years to do could be done by
Humans in weeks. And will be done. In time. where robots go, people
inevitably follow-Ranger, Surveyor, Lunar Orbiter, then Apollo. It'll happen
with Mars. After lunar return, which a successor administration (hopefully
in 2013) will put back on NASA's official agenda.

Yes, considering how amazingly solvent the American government is at
the moment, there's no doubt they'll be stepping up space exploration
as soon as the Republicans get in.