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#141
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
Paul Schlyter wrote in
: On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:38:37 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: And here you are in conflict with what you said up above. What a maroon. Maroon? QED. -- Terry Austin Vacation photos from Iceland: https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole." -- David Bilek Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals. |
#142
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
Gary Harnagel wrote in
: On Saturday, September 22, 2018 at 3:44:12 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote: ? On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:02:09 -0600, Chris L Peterson wrote: True agnosticism has nothing to do with atheism There are agnostic atheists and there are agnostic theists. Agnosticism has to do with the knowability of the question, it has nothing to do with belief. It has to do with the belief about the knowability. The knowability itself either exists or does not exist, independently of personal beliefs. I believe that anything that exists is knowable (potentially). Reality does not require your belief to be reality. -- Terry Austin Vacation photos from Iceland: https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole." -- David Bilek Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals. |
#143
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
Paul Schlyter wrote in
: On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 07:35:32 -0600, Chris L Peterson wrote: On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:44:04 +0200, Paul Schlyter wrote: On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:02:09 -0600, Chris L Peterson wrote: True agnosticism has nothing to do with atheism There are agnostic atheists and there are agnostic theists. Agnosticism has to do with the knowability of the question, it has nothing to do with belief. It has to do with the belief about the knowability. The knowability itself either exists or does not exist, independently of personal beliefs. Nevertheless, agnosticism is unrelated to theism or atheism. It measures something different. Everyone who is informed is either an atheist or a theist, it's just a matter of how strong their belief is either way. Why is it mandatory to "choose side" here? Imagine a bowl filled with fine grsined sand. How many grains of sand are there in the bowl? Undoubtedly a very large number - but is that large number an even number or an odd number? You will never know - but what do you **believe**? Do really everyone have to be an "evenist" or an "oddist"? If not, why do everyone have to be a theist or an atheist? Why exclude the alternative of refraining from choosing a belief here? And how do you classify those who simply don't care, but find morons arguing to be entertaining? -- Terry Austin Vacation photos from Iceland: https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole." -- David Bilek Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals. |
#144
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 09:25:54 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
wrote: And how do you classify those who simply don't care, but find morons arguing to be entertaining? Apathetic. And intellectually weak. |
#145
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
Chris L Peterson wrote in
: On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 09:25:54 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: And how do you classify those who simply don't care, but find morons arguing to be entertaining? Apathetic. And intellectually weak. Given that you're a Chris, and therefore, stupid, I'll take that as an indication that you recognize that grown ups, unlike you, have more important things to devote their lives to, and that you know you're stupid and resent how much smarter most people are. Admitting you have a problem is the first step to getting help. -- Terry Austin Vacation photos from Iceland: https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole." -- David Bilek Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals. |
#146
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 10:24:41 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
Gary Harnagel wrote in : I believe that anything that exists is knowable (potentially). Reality does not require your belief to be reality. “I reject your reality and substitute my own.” – Adam Savage “I'd far rather be happy than right any day.” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy |
#147
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
Gary Harnagel wrote in
: On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 10:24:41 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: Gary Harnagel wrote in : I believe that anything that exists is knowable (potentially). Reality does not require your belief to be reality. “I reject your reality and substitute my own.” – Adam Savage “I'd far rather be happy than right any day.” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Just don't whine when people point and laugh at you. -- Terry Austin "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole." -- David Bilek Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals. |
#148
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On 23/09/2018 11:22, Paul Schlyter wrote:
On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 07:35:32 -0600, Chris L Peterson wrote: On Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:44:04 +0200, Paul Schlyter wrote: On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:02:09 -0600, Chris L Peterson wrote: True agnosticism has nothing to do with atheism There are agnostic atheists and there are agnostic theists. Agnosticism has to do with the knowability of the question, it has nothing to do with belief. It has to do with the belief about the knowability. The knowability itself either exists or does not exist, independently of personal beliefs. Nevertheless, agnosticism is unrelated to theism or atheism. It measures something different. Everyone who is informed is either an atheist or a theist, it's just a matter of how strong their belief is either way. Why is it mandatory to "choose side" here? Because that is what the majority of people do when faced with a binary yes or no question (and what polarises US political debate too). The most uninformative prior probability distribution of belief in the outcome of a binary decision with 0 meaning false and 1 meaning true (or vice versa) can be derived by several different methods as: P(x) = 1/(x(1-x)) First derived by Haldane it is one of a family of improper prior probability distributions that reflect the absence of any data or even knowing whether the question itself is capable of being answered. I favour the derivation by Jaynes (1968) based on Lie groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_...rmative_priors It is symmetric about x=1/2 (the lowest value it ever takes). https://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/prior.pdf One slightly hand waving physicists derivation is at pages 19-20 in the following paper by Jaynes ( a much more rigorous proof from Lie groups exists). https://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/prior.pdf It is worth bearing in mind that no-one was ever burned at the stake for a belief in God x=1/2. It was true believers in "*the* one true God" being burnt at the stake by the true believers in another brand. The Vicar of Bray famously made a habit of regularly swapping sides to stay in business depending on which way the wind was blowing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vicar_of_Bray Bringing it back to astronomy Laplace first used the technique to estimate the mass of Saturn based on the evidence available to him. Imagine a bowl filled with fine grsined sand. How many grains of sand are there in the bowl? Undoubtedly a very large number - but is that large number an even number or an odd number? You will never know - but what do you **believe**? x=1/2 ;-) Do really everyone have to be an "evenist" or an "oddist"? If not, why do everyone have to be a theist or an atheist? Why exclude the alternative of refraining from choosing a belief here? It is a feature of how people behave in the absence of evidence. Strictly it codifies the state of belief about such a binary question in the total abscence of any evidence at all. It stems ultitmately from consideration of group invariance properties on the interval between 0 and 1. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
#149
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 9:12:14 PM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:
“I'd far rather be happy than right any day.” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy It's better to be right. About some things, at least. Being wrong can lead to you being happy temporarily, and then dead permanently. One needs to be as aware as possible of the reality of the world around you, including the things that are not as you wish them to be, in order to maximize your chances of survival. John Savard |
#150
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
Gary Harnagel wrote:
On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 10:24:41 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: Gary Harnagel wrote in : I believe that anything that exists is knowable (potentially). Reality does not require your belief to be reality. “I reject your reality and substitute my own.” – Adam Savage “I'd far rather be happy than right any day.” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Douglas Adams had this to say about religion: “I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously.” Douglas Adams |
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