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Evidence for the existence of God



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 12th 16, 08:46 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:46:06 AM UTC-6, Razzmatazz wrote:

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:29:02 AM UTC-5, Gary Harnagel wrote:

https://art-soulworks.com/pages/prin...peace-painting


That's a stunning portrait for an 8 year old to have painted. very
talented youngster indeed.

For me, images of Jesus have no meaning whatsoever. However, his words
are priceless gifts.

Razzy


I may be wrong, but I think these two experiences are indeed connected
and were designed by Providence (as George Washington would say) for those
whose faith has been eroded by the caustic winds of doubt.

Gary
  #12  
Old September 12th 16, 11:32 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Razzmatazz
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Posts: 265
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 2:46:02 PM UTC-5, Gary Harnagel wrote:
On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:46:06 AM UTC-6, Razzmatazz wrote:

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:29:02 AM UTC-5, Gary Harnagel wrote:

https://art-soulworks.com/pages/prin...peace-painting


That's a stunning portrait for an 8 year old to have painted. very
talented youngster indeed.

For me, images of Jesus have no meaning whatsoever. However, his words
are priceless gifts.

Razzy


I may be wrong, but I think these two experiences are indeed connected
and were designed by Providence (as George Washington would say) for those
whose faith has been eroded by the caustic winds of doubt.


If you are really interested in what constitutes a free nation run on Christian principles, consider this essay by Bill Moyers, who I consider to be a moral voice of reason, a true Christian in the classic sense:

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/1761...meri ca/#more

Let me know where you think Trump stands, what principles he espouses (besides making oodles of money for himself).

Razzy
  #13  
Old September 12th 16, 11:57 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 12:24:52 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:10:05 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 08:29:00 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

So we have two witnesses who didn't know each other and who saw
Jesus and agree on what he looks like. We also have Exhibit A,
the portrait of Jesus. Interestingly, in an interview, the boy
(Colton) said he wouldn't become a minister because there are
a lot of denominations that all teach different things.


I don't see anything here that even remotely rises to the level of
objective, or even reasonable evidence for the existence of a god.


Apparently, you weren't paying much attention to what I wrote at the
beginning:

"In between the extremes are those who accept personal experiences which
cannot be transferred to others except anecdotally. Here are two cases
where two witnesses testify of Jesus."


I read that. I don't see how it tells us anything useful, however. We
live in a society steeped in Christianity- it's a societal meme that
even very young children are aware of. People testify to alien
abductions, as well. Or they reveal- even as children- that their
reported NDEs were fake. None of this provides evidence for a god that
rises above the noise.

Of course personal experiences aren't "objective, scientific evidence."


Indeed, they are not.

A girl can paint? A boy thinks he went to heaven? Two people have a
similar idea what Jesus looked like?

A few anecdotal tales are not going to convince anybody.


You are dead wrong there because these events have convinced millions.


Yes, that's true. There are many people who are unable to use reason
to come to conclusions about the nature of reality. It's why I fight
against faith, the single greatest threat our species faces.

Come on. You said you had real evidence. Something new. Let's have it.


You've had it, in more ways than one, I'm afraid.


Well, so much for the evidence claim.
  #14  
Old September 13th 16, 12:06 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 15:32:34 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
wrote:

If you are really interested in what constitutes a free nation run on Christian principles...


Have there ever been any? Certainly, the U.S. was founded with a
system that is actively non-Christian in its principles.
  #15  
Old September 13th 16, 12:26 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Razzmatazz
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Posts: 265
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 6:06:39 PM UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 15:32:34 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
wrote:

If you are really interested in what constitutes a free nation run on Christian principles...


Have there ever been any? Certainly, the U.S. was founded with a
system that is actively non-Christian in its principles.


I think it was founded on Judeo-Christian thought at the time, but tempered by humanist understanding that the foundation should apply to all people. Not everyone was on board with that, and indeed the so-called founding fathers quarreled about that and lots of other matters. Read Bill Moyer's essay (I know it's somewhat long, but worth it).
  #16  
Old September 13th 16, 01:13 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:26:22 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
wrote:

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 6:06:39 PM UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 15:32:34 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
wrote:

If you are really interested in what constitutes a free nation run on Christian principles...


Have there ever been any? Certainly, the U.S. was founded with a
system that is actively non-Christian in its principles.


I think it was founded on Judeo-Christian thought at the time, but tempered by humanist understanding that the foundation should apply to all people. Not everyone was on board with that, and indeed the so-called founding fathers quarreled about that and lots of other matters. Read Bill Moyer's essay (I know it's somewhat long, but worth it).


I'll read it (Moyers is always good). However, I've studied a great
deal about the founding of the country, and many of the founders, and
I'd have to say that they were primarily influenced by their Christian
heritage to design a system that looks nothing like what we would
generally categorize as "Judeo-Christian" (and certainly, many of the
most influential were actively opposed to Christianity). Highly
secular, with a governance system quite opposite to anything in
Judeo-Christian history, with the concept of human rights, which are
contrary to Judeo-Christian values, with a legal system quite unlike
anything found in scripture, with a distinct lack of moral dictates.
About as unbiblical as I can imagine (and we can look at the Ten
Commandments as a nice example, what with only three connected with
American law, none constitutionally, and the rest conflicting with
American law).
  #17  
Old September 13th 16, 02:21 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 1:25:06 PM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:

I'm afraid I've exposed you to evidence for which you will be held
accountable one day.


If God is just, given the quality of the evidence you have supplied so far, it
would not make sense to hold him "accountable" to a great extent.

This sort of thing, instead, is what suggests that organized religion is a scheme
to use emotional manipulation to control people's minds.

John Savard
  #18  
Old September 13th 16, 02:47 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 3:06:43 PM UTC-6, Razzmatazz wrote:

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 2:46:02 PM UTC-5, Gary Harnagel wrote:

I may be wrong, but I think these two experiences are indeed connected
and were designed by Providence (as George Washington would say) for those
whose faith has been eroded by the caustic winds of doubt.

Gary


Personally I doubt it but YMMV. To me it has the whiff of idolatry or the
worship of graven images. It may even have a bit of the "hey I can make
money off this" feel to it.


Well, Akiane has a website with dozens of her paintings for sale :-)

Nevertheless it may also provide comfort to those who wish it to be so.


Mostly, I think, it just bolsters their faith a bit.

The thing is, if you stick to words, your philosophy has real substance.


They say that a picture is worth a thousand words :-)

Lemme ask you, do you find anything in these 7 principles to be objectionable?

1st Principle: The inherent worth and dignity of every person;


Nope.

2nd Principle: Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;


Nope

3rd Principle: Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual
growth;


Nope.

4th Principle: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;


Nope.

5th Principle: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic
process in society;


Not in the present world. Did you ever read anything about "macrolife"
by Dandridge Cole?

6th Principle: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice
for all;


It's a good goal but there are a lot of disrupters.

7th Principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of
which we are a part.


Do you mean "Gaia"?

If you are really interested in what constitutes a free nation run on
Christian principles, consider this essay by Bill Moyers, who I consider
to be a moral voice of reason, a true Christian in the classic sense:

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/1761...meri ca/#more

Let me know where you think Trump stands, what principles he espouses
(besides making oodles of money for himself).


I think Pence, or even Kaine, would be much better presidents than the ones
running for the office.
  #19  
Old September 13th 16, 02:55 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 4:57:47 PM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 12:24:52 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:10:05 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 08:29:00 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

So we have two witnesses who didn't know each other and who saw
Jesus and agree on what he looks like. We also have Exhibit A,
the portrait of Jesus. Interestingly, in an interview, the boy
(Colton) said he wouldn't become a minister because there are
a lot of denominations that all teach different things.

I don't see anything here that even remotely rises to the level of
objective, or even reasonable evidence for the existence of a god.


Apparently, you weren't paying much attention to what I wrote at the
beginning:

"In between the extremes are those who accept personal experiences which
cannot be transferred to others except anecdotally. Here are two cases
where two witnesses testify of Jesus."


I read that. I don't see how it tells us anything useful, however. We
live in a society steeped in Christianity- it's a societal meme that
even very young children are aware of. People testify to alien
abductions, as well. Or they reveal- even as children- that their
reported NDEs were fake. None of this provides evidence for a god that
rises above the noise.


In your not-so-humble opinion :-|

A few anecdotal tales are not going to convince anybody.


You are dead wrong there because these events have convinced millions.


Yes, that's true. There are many people who are unable to use reason
to come to conclusions about the nature of reality. It's why I fight
against faith, the single greatest threat our species faces.

Come on. You said you had real evidence. Something new. Let's have it.


You've had it, in more ways than one, I'm afraid.


Well, so much for the evidence claim.


In your not-so-humble opinion :-|
  #20  
Old September 13th 16, 03:08 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 7:21:11 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 1:25:06 PM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:

I'm afraid I've exposed you to evidence for which you will be held
accountable one day.


If God is just, given the quality of the evidence you have supplied so
far, it would not make sense to hold him "accountable" to a great extent.


There are many, many, many anecdotal evidences that people have experienced.
Have you read Dr. Moody's books? Have you heard about the Cokeville
miracle?

This sort of thing, instead, is what suggests that organized religion is
a scheme to use emotional manipulation to control people's minds.

John Savard


I'm surprised that you would conflate organized religion with these events.
There was NOTHING "organized" about them. Because of Akiane's experiences,
her parents decided their atheistic world view was wrong. There's some
"objective evidence" for you. Akiane has decided not to join any
organized religion, preferring to paint and talk about love.

Gary
 




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