To Refract or to SC

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:23:45 +0100, Morgoth
wrote:


Oh, if you already have a light-bucket then fair enough, but why go
for another scope? Why not outfit the bucket with say, a couple of
Radians. Apeture wins every time.

I too have the Orion Europa 250 *and* a 4" Vixen apo refractor. Which
do I prefer? Why the refractor of course.

I'm mostly interested in digital imaging.

I admit that at times the resolving power of the 4" is sometimes
evident but on the whole it can give it's bigger light bucket cousins
a good run for their money.

There are two main issues that sway me - quality of the non-optical
components and quality of the optical system (which is just about the
whole scope of course ).

Optically, the view through the apo is fantastic. The limited number
of times I've used both scopes side by side, the contrast and
shaprness of the apo's image far exceeds that of the reflector. It's
just a very pleasant scope to look through.

Non-optically the apo is considerably better (at a price) than the
reflector (which is supposed to be a budget scope).

I bought a dovetail coupling for the Europa so that I could mount it
on my GP-DX mount. Even with this factor normalised between them, I
find that when I'm using the reflector, I miss the apo. During an
evening's session the reflector will often be taken off and the apo
put back on. Imaging Mars recently, whether the conditions were just
not right for the relector or not, the apo consistently gave better
results.

Would this happen with a goto SCT? I don't know because I have
resited the hype and have never owned one. All I can say is that a
certain Scottish gentleman, who visited me recently, commented that my
apo was considerably nicer to use than his LX200.

Aperture is very important, but apparently it isn't everything.
--
Pete
Homepage at http://www.pbl33.co.uk
CCD/digicam astronomy

"Pete Lawrence" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:23:45 +0100, Morgoth
wrote:


Oh, if you already have a light-bucket then fair enough, but why go
for another scope? Why not outfit the bucket with say, a couple of
Radians. Apeture wins every time.

I too have the Orion Europa 250 *and* a 4" Vixen apo refractor. Which
do I prefer? Why the refractor of course.

I'm mostly interested in digital imaging.

I admit that at times the resolving power of the 4" is sometimes
evident but on the whole it can give it's bigger light bucket cousins
a good run for their money.

There are two main issues that sway me - quality of the non-optical
components and quality of the optical system (which is just about the
whole scope of course ).

Optically, the view through the apo is fantastic. The limited number
of times I've used both scopes side by side, the contrast and
shaprness of the apo's image far exceeds that of the reflector. It's
just a very pleasant scope to look through.

Non-optically the apo is considerably better (at a price) than the
reflector (which is supposed to be a budget scope).

I bought a dovetail coupling for the Europa so that I could mount it
on my GP-DX mount. Even with this factor normalised between them, I
find that when I'm using the reflector, I miss the apo. During an
evening's session the reflector will often be taken off and the apo
put back on. Imaging Mars recently, whether the conditions were just
not right for the relector or not, the apo consistently gave better
results.

Would this happen with a goto SCT? I don't know because I have
resited the hype and have never owned one. All I can say is that a
certain Scottish gentleman, who visited me recently, commented that my
apo was considerably nicer to use than his LX200.

Aperture is very important, but apparently it isn't everything.
--
Pete
Homepage at http://www.pbl33.co.uk
CCD/digicam astronomy

Morgoth

I did have a little cheap (nice) refractor and it is so easy to use/move.
I also prefered the optical quality and lack of atmospheric distortions
i find with the 10" mirror. Wobble on the moon @ 4050X was non
existant in the 4" lens, where as, with the 10" it was clearly visible.

Battery nearly dead
Bye

Would this happen with a goto SCT? I don't know because I have
resited the hype and have never owned one.

Its not all hype though, SCTs are good all round scopes. Too much SCT
bashing going on in this thread I reckon.

All I can say is that a
certain Scottish gentleman, who visited me recently, commented that my
apo was considerably nicer to use than his LX200.

Careful who you are calling a gentleman! I liked the good clean focusing on
the Vixen, I get really annoyed at the LX200s sloppy focusing system. The
focus on the Meade also seems more volatile and likely to shift with
temperature change, angle of the mirror shifting on long exposures etc. The
Vixen seemed much more 'no fuss'. It seemed more stable also. Having said
that , Im not sure how it compares cost wise, once you add a 'goto' computer
I reckon its a more expensive option. The image on the SCT is a bit softer
but not that much. Its not all that much differenent to an equivalent
newtonian I reckon. The way people talk about it here you would think it was
far inferior. It isnt really.

Aperture is very important, but apparently it isn't everything.

Go out to a dark sky and my 80mm shortube gives better views than my LX 200
gives in my light polluted sky. Its all relative.

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:08:46 +0100, "Geoff Smith"
wrote:

Would this happen with a goto SCT? I don't know because I have
resited the hype and have never owned one.

Its not all hype though, SCTs are good all round scopes. Too much SCT
bashing going on in this thread I reckon.

Missed the apo bashing bits did we?

All I can say is that a
certain Scottish gentleman, who visited me recently, commented that my
apo was considerably nicer to use than his LX200.

Careful who you are calling a gentleman!

Sorry.

I liked the good clean focusing on
the Vixen, I get really annoyed at the LX200s sloppy focusing system. The
focus on the Meade also seems more volatile and likely to shift with
temperature change, angle of the mirror shifting on long exposures etc. The
Vixen seemed much more 'no fuss'. It seemed more stable also. Having said
that , Im not sure how it compares cost wise, once you add a 'goto' computer
I reckon its a more expensive option.

Why would I want to add a GOTO system? Here on the south coast,
astronomy is done by men.

I believe there's a fairly inexpensive option here anyway - courtesy
of the WinCTC controller

http://www.ip.pt/coaa/winctc.htm

Ok - it may not have the twirly black telephone cord that the meade
has (heh heh heh a marketting dream) but I think this unit gets good
reviews for a reasonable (very reasonable for the astro world) price.

The image on the SCT is a bit softer but not that much.
Its not all that much differenent to an equivalent
newtonian I reckon.

Quite a bit more expensive though. However having said this, so is an
apo!

The way people talk about it here you would think it was
far inferior. It isnt really.

I was quite interested in your comments we did our observing session
together. In particular you mentioned something about the LX200's
fork mounting not being quite as rigid as it looks. I was surprised
by this. I must admit that I have been suckered in by the look of
these units from time to time. However, I get the impression that you
have to look a bit deeper than the glossy appearance.

Aperture is very important, but apparently it isn't everything.

Go out to a dark sky and my 80mm shortube gives better views than my LX 200
gives in my light polluted sky. Its all relative.

Yes this is a very good point too. If a smaller scope means that you
can move to a darker site with relative ease, this can become a very
important factor.

--
Pete
Homepage at http://www.pbl33.co.uk
CCD/digicam astronomy

Robert Geake wrote:
Hello Chaps

My little TAL recently met an untimley end, i am looking to buy
another scope.
I already have a Eurpoa 250 so a reflector is not required.

I understand that refractors are very good for planetary / binary /
cluster observations from experience(The little tal eats the Europa
for brekkie when it comes to that kind of observing).

Going to have a budget of about a grand by Jan/Feb next year which
gives
me time to decide and i need only the OTA.

Any info / suggestions you can give will be recieved with an open
mind..


Seeing as how your mind is open, how about getting your existing Europa
250 optics refigured or replaced?

The fact that your 'little tal eats the Europa for brekkie when it comes to
that kind of observing' seems to me to point to something being very
seriously wrong with your Europa 250 reflector as it should absolutely be
the other way around. A 4-inch refractor outclassing a 10-inch; I don't
think so.....

Hard to see why you'd want to buy a rinky-dink el-crappola short-tube
refractor to go with your apparently sub-standard reflector when for the
same price you could have a seriously sod-off set of optics.

Regards
Chef!

"Robert Geake" wrote in message ...

But my dear Morgoth

I already own a 10" reflector that provides exellent deep sky views.
Im looking for a planetary / double / GC / OC scope and the few SC's
ive looked through where actually worse than the TAL 4" refractor.
Including a 10" meade LX, a celestron 8" and an Orion Starmax.

It will take a lot of perswading to make me buy a Schmitt of any kind!

Rob

Now we've established that Rob isn't actually dangerous could someone
please go round and collimate the 10" for him?
I have a contact with a set of 10" Oldham Optics and his scope leaves
my 6" f/8 refractor for dead on every object you care to mention. If
he lived any nearer I'd go round and nick the bløødy thing! ;-)

BTW What did happpen to the 4" Tal Rob? I must have missed that bit.

Chris.B

"Chris.B" wrote in message
om...
"Robert Geake" wrote in message
...

But my dear Morgoth

I already own a 10" reflector that provides exellent deep sky views.
Im looking for a planetary / double / GC / OC scope and the few SC's
ive looked through where actually worse than the TAL 4" refractor.
Including a 10" meade LX, a celestron 8" and an Orion Starmax.

It will take a lot of perswading to make me buy a Schmitt of any kind!

Rob

Now we've established that Rob isn't actually dangerous could someone
please go round and collimate the 10" for him?

Oh God, Yes please. Time after time i think to myself "this time ive got it
right".

I have a contact with a set of 10" Oldham Optics and his scope leaves
my 6" f/8 refractor for dead on every object you care to mention. If
he lived any nearer I'd go round and nick the bløødy thing! ;-)

BTW What did happpen to the 4" Tal Rob? I must have missed that bit.

Chris.B

The Tal, you didnt miss it, i didnt tell anyone, err well, you know when you
go
inside to make a cup of char then, when you come back out its very dark
compared
to when you went in. Well i did that and when i came back out walked into
the end of
the scope attached to an EQ-6, done this before but never with the dec + ra
axis locked.
Got me in the top lip and nose!

My lord it hurt, a blinding rage ensued (i can be dangerous when acosted by
a
telescope), the tal was carefully removed from the mount and quite
deliberatley
murdered!

The smash of the primary and the moonlight reflecting through all the little
shards of
smashed glass flying through the air looked quite impressive. Only after
subsidence
of rage did i realise what i had done. I killed my best
friend.......Whaaaaaa

TTFN

Rob

PS: I do like the look of those borg hutech jobbies, anyone had/looked
through one?

Next scope i will put a red led on each end (as i have the europa)

"Chef!" wrote in message
...
Robert Geake wrote:
Hello Chaps

My little TAL recently met an untimley end, i am looking to buy
another scope.
I already have a Eurpoa 250 so a reflector is not required.

I understand that refractors are very good for planetary / binary /
cluster observations from experience(The little tal eats the Europa
for brekkie when it comes to that kind of observing).

Going to have a budget of about a grand by Jan/Feb next year which
gives
me time to decide and i need only the OTA.

Any info / suggestions you can give will be recieved with an open
mind..


Seeing as how your mind is open, how about getting your existing Europa
250 optics refigured or replaced?

The fact that your 'little tal eats the Europa for brekkie when it comes
to
that kind of observing' seems to me to point to something being very
seriously wrong with your Europa 250 reflector as it should absolutely be
the other way around. A 4-inch refractor outclassing a 10-inch; I don't
think so.....

Hard to see why you'd want to buy a rinky-dink el-crappola short-tube
refractor to go with your apparently sub-standard reflector when for the
same price you could have a seriously sod-off set of optics.

Regards
Chef!








(In the style of Neo)
I beleive that i am (even though i have a degree in mech engineering) that i
am completely useless at collimating my telescope you see.

Rob

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:25:08 +0000 (UTC), "Robert Geake"
wrote:

(In the style of Neo)
I beleive that i am (even though i have a degree in mech engineering) that i
am completely useless at collimating my telescope you see.

Shouldn't that be: "I never used to be able to spell engineer, now I
are one" ;-)

Trouble is that a degree in mechanical engineering is useless for
collimating a scope because you don't need to use a hammer ;-)
--
Pete
Homepage at http://www.pbl33.co.uk
CCD/digicam astronomy

"Pete Lawrence" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:25:08 +0000 (UTC), "Robert Geake"
wrote:

(In the style of Neo)
I beleive that i am (even though i have a degree in mech engineering)
that i
am completely useless at collimating my telescope you see.

Shouldn't that be: "I never used to be able to spell engineer, now I
are one" ;-)

Trouble is that a degree in mechanical engineering is useless for
collimating a scope because you don't need to use a hammer ;-)
--
Pete
Homepage at http://www.pbl33.co.uk
CCD/digicam astronomy

I have you know there are a million and one uses for a hammer and
a flat bladed screwdriver. Those little 10mm nuts for collimation come
on and off a treat with a flat bladed screw driver and a couple of
whacks from my 2lb hammer!


Rob