Big Bang deflates?

nightbat wrote

More galaxy star clusters found believed older then BB
estimates.


the nightbat


brodix wrote:

NYTimes

New-Found Old Galaxies Upsetting Astronomers' Long-Held Theories on
the Big Bang
By KENNETH CHANG

Published: January 8, 2004

ATLANTA, Jan. 7 — Gazing deep into space and far into the past,
astronomers have found that the early universe, a couple of billion
years after the Big Bang, looks remarkably like the present-day
universe.

Astronomers said here on Monday at a meeting of the American
Astronomical Society that they had found huge elliptical galaxies that
formed within one billion to two billion years after the Big Bang,
perhaps a couple of billion years earlier than expected.
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A few days earlier, researchers had announced that the Hubble Space
Telescope had spotted a gathering cloud of perhaps 100 galaxies from
the same epoch, an early appearance of such galactic clusters.

On Wednesday, astronomers at the meeting said that three billion years
after the Big Bang, one of the largest structures in the universe, a
string of galaxies 300 million light-years long and 50 million
light-years wide, had already formed. A light-year is the distance
that light travels in one year, or almost six trillion miles.

That means the string is nearly 2,000 billion billion miles long.

Some astronomers said the discoveries could challenge a widely
accepted picture of the evolution of the universe, that galaxies,
clusters and the galactic strings formed in a bottom-up fashion, that
the universe's small objects formed first and then clumped together
into larger structures over time.

"The universe is growing up a little faster than we had thought," said
Dr. Povilas Palunas of the University of Texas, one of the astronomers
who found the string of galaxies. "We're seeing a much larger
structure than any of the models predict. So that's surprising."

In the prevailing understanding of the universe, astronomers believe
that slight clumpiness in the distribution of dark matter, the 90
percent of matter that pervades the universe but still has not been
identified, drew in clumps of hydrogen gas that then collapsed into
stars and galaxies, the first stars forming about a half billion years
after the Big Bang. The galaxies then gathered in clusters, and the
clusters gathered in long strings with humongous, almost empty, voids
in between. The first such string, named the Great Wall, was
discovered in 1989 about 250 million light-years away.

The newly discovered string lies in a southern constellation, Grus, at
10.8 billion light-years away, and represents what the universe looked
like 10.8 billion years ago, or three billion years after the Big
Bang.

The international team of researchers identified 37 very bright
galaxies in that region of space and found that they were not randomly
distributed, as would be expected, but instead appeared to line up
along the string.

Such structures are rarely seen in computer simulations of the early
universe, said Dr. Bruce E. Woodgate of the NASA Goddard Space Flight
Center, a member of the team.

"We think it disagrees with the theoretical predictions in that we see
filaments and voids larger than predicted," Dr. Woodgate said.

Dr. Robert P. Kirshner of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for
Astrophysics said the findings were interesting, but that it was too
early to eliminate any theories. What is probably needed was a better
understanding how of a clump of dark matter leads to the formation of
stars.

"What we're seeing here," Dr. Kirshner said, "is the beginning of the
investigation how structure grows."

At the astronomy meeting on Monday, another team of researchers
reported finding a large number of large elliptical galaxies. As part
of an investigation known as the Gemini Deep Deep Survey, the
astronomers explored 300 faint galaxies dating from when the universe
was three billion and six billion years old. The large elliptical
galaxies are supposedly a merged product of smaller spiral galaxies.

Yet not only did they exist that early in the universe, but the stars
within these galaxies also appeared a couple of billion years old
already, implying that they had formed as early as a billion and a
half years after the Big Bang.

"Massive galaxies seem to be forming surprisingly early after the Big
Bang," said Dr. Roberto Abraham of the University of Toronto and a
co-principal investigator on the team. "It is supposed to take time.
It seems to be happening right away."

The data actually fit better with the views that astronomers held
before the rise of the current dark-matter models, when they theorized
that the largest galaxies formed first.

"If we presented this to astronomers 25 years ago," Dr. Abraham said,
"they wouldn't have been surprised."

A third team of astronomers found two clusters of galaxies that also
point to a precocious universe. Using the Hubble telescope, the
astronomers spotted a cluster of at least 30 galaxies dating from when
the universe was younger than two billion years old and extending
three million light-years across.

"Which is similar in size to what we see today for the size of a
cluster," said Dr. Marc Postman, an astronomer at the Space Telescope
Science Institute in Baltimore and a member of the team.

Present-day clusters contain hundreds to thousands of galaxies.

The same team found a second cluster, from when the universe was five
billion years old that was almost indistinguishable from modern
clusters.

"It says these structures, which are common in the universe today,
were essentially being constructed very early on," Dr. Postman said.

The galactic cluster findings were reported in Oct. 20 issue of The
Astrophysical Journal and the Jan. 1 issue of Nature.

For now, the findings do not directly contradict the models that
predict that some structures should form, but rarely. But if many more
start showing up in observations, Dr. Postman said, "then you might
get into a bit of a problem explain how you get so many."

In message , nightbat
writes
nightbat wrote

More galaxy star clusters found believed older then BB
estimates.


the nightbat

I think I'll kill file _all_ the people who top post and can't be
bothered to snip text. You're first.
--
Rabbit arithmetic - 1 plus 1 equals 10
Remove spam and invalid from address to reply.

Hi Nightbat Having galaxies older than the last mini-bang. Gives more
evidence for mini-bangs Bert

nightbat wrote

G=EMC^2 Glazier wrote:

Hi Nightbat Having galaxies older than the last mini-bang. Gives more
evidence for mini-bangs Bert

nightbat

Depends Bert on what you classify as a mini-bang, for per
standard model the theorized original BB was the beginning of space time
itself. I tried posting a more in depth discussion of this in the Time
and Distance thread but it was not permitted to be posted for some
inexplicable reasons? I tried three times under various formats and it
still was withheld from public group disclosure. What you deduce is
correct and part of the problem for present cosmologists, in that, if
more and more older distant galaxies are detected how do they fit them
in with present known BB conventional model understanding?

Darla, our resident alien, touched on this in one of her posts about
truth seeking versus Sci Fi fantasy and sometimes the misinterpreting,
non acceptance, conflicting results without peer resolve, overlapment,
and/or fudging the evidence, to suit or fit preconceived notions and
standard model. What you have on your side Bert, is an inquiring and
inquisitive mind.

According to my " Continuing Universe Rule " nova's, super nova's, and
even theoretical rare pointing mega nova's, are possible and a natural
process of cosmic stellar dynamic mechanism. Chandra's mathematical
proofs placed upper limits to normal gravity star mass accumulation,
departing from the previous peer long held and theoretically understood,
at the time, no limit star mass growth potential. Again, this is all on
going frame interpretation conflict with polarization of camps vying for
over all dominant understanding. In order to hopefully get the full
picture in understanding universal field dynamics, (TOE) or unified
field theory, one must always try to keep an unbiased and logical mind.
You were very fortunate to meet the distinguished Dr. Einstein himself,
for as a deep theoretical thinker, that he was, it was a mutual
pleasure, I'm sure, to meet someone as questioning as yourself, Bert,
but with an open mind to all logical but unknown viable possibilities.


the nightbat

Hi Nightbat The Hubble looking back as far as 12 billion light years
in a space area the size of a grain of sand at arm's length has shown us
1500 galaxies. That has to tell us something. Glad you
remembered about my 15 minute talk with Einstien. I think of it every
day. Bert

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:26:12 -0500, nightbat
wrote:

nightbat wrote

More galaxy star clusters found believed older then BB
estimates.


the nightbat



Just my 2 cents worth
I think this applies to our galaxy as well.
somewhere I read, a long time ago our solar system was on the other
side of the milky way galaxy and that was about 250 million years ago
so that means one trip around is about 500 million years.
So if the earth is 4 billion years old it has made 8 trips around the
galactic center, that leave only 8 billion years left for everything
else to happen (16 trips) including creation of the universe,
Still doesn't seem to be enough time for all this to take place

"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote in message...
...

Hi Nightbat The Hubble looking back as far as 12 billion light years
in a space area the size of a grain of sand at arm's length has shown us
1500 galaxies. That has to tell us something. Glad you
remembered about my 15 minute talk with Einstien. I think of it every
day. Bert


Waitasec...

Bert, you had a 15 minute talk with Einstein? I would be
very interested to hear what you and he talked about! So
would you share it with us?

Sorry if you've done this before and i missed it. If so, i
hope you don't mind repeating it.

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
if you have love,
you really have something,
if you give love,
you'll never have nothing.

Paine Ellsworth

"Bob Lambeau" wrote in message...
...

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:26:12 -0500, nightbat
wrote:

nightbat wrote

More galaxy star clusters found believed older then BB
estimates.


the nightbat



Just my 2 cents worth
I think this applies to our galaxy as well.
somewhere I read, a long time ago our solar system was on the other
side of the milky way galaxy and that was about 250 million years ago
so that means one trip around is about 500 million years.
So if the earth is 4 billion years old it has made 8 trips around the
galactic center, that leave only 8 billion years left for everything
else to happen (16 trips) including creation of the universe,
Still doesn't seem to be enough time for all this to take place

'Lo Bob --

The estimates that i've heard regarding the period of the
Galaxy range between 200 million and 250 million years.
So there have been twice as many or more "trips" of our
Solar System around the Galaxy.

Also, while many scientists seem to lead us in the direction
that 13-15 billion years is the age of the Universe, others like
to see this as a "minimum possible age." Some scientists
think that the Universe may be quite a bit older than this.
There is not a lot of agreement on just *how* old, however.

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
Everytime you listen to a song,
When you hear a voice who likes to sing
How your lovin' eyes are everything,
Think of me just singin' right along.

Close your eyes and listen carefully,
Hear me sing my love forever true,
Every word of my love meant for you,
Every song a sing-a-long from me.

Paine Ellsworth

Hi Painius My conversation with A. Einstein took place in Newton
center Ma. It was over 50 years ago. I was a just a young guy who just
went into construction(I liked carpentry) I was building a deck for a
Mrs Irma Ring. Einstein was giving a talk at MIT,and Mrs Ring had him
staying at her house for that weekend. I told her my love of science,and
that Monday morning before he was going back to Princeton we had coffee
together,and taked about gravity,and inertia. The conversation ended in
15 minutes for a car came to pick him up. He gave me a book,and signed
it A Einstein. The book was on letters between him and Max Born. Bert
PS I did mention to him about my G=EMC^2 and he smiled. It was just
at that point he had to leave. I will never know what that smile meant.

"Painius" wrote in message
...

Also, while many scientists seem to lead us in the direction
that 13-15 billion years is the age of the Universe, others like
to see this as a "minimum possible age." Some scientists
think that the Universe may be quite a bit older than this.
There is not a lot of agreement on just *how* old, however.

OK, lets explore this statement a bit. Please provide references to these
scientists and their arguments.