Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:

Does anyone care about a shape optimized 4 slice toaster or filing cabinet?

Yes. I do.

If any significant number of items in your house are fabricated, it makes sense
to use as few raw materials as possible, so, for example, it would make sense to
honeycomb the inside of a knife handle, since it would still be strong enough,
and would allow you to keep a gram or two of material "in the pot" for other
projects.

Ditto everything you make.

Nonsense; the items in one's house are based on price not how elegantly
it was produced.

It makes no sense to honeycomb the inside of a knife handle as it would
add no functionality and just increase the price.


What price?

The manufacturing cost which increases the retail sales price at the store.

It would reduce both the time to fabricate and feedstock used, albeit at the
cost of slightly more complex software.

Or you could injection mold it, as most knife handles are, for a fraction
of the manufacturing cost of the honyecomb nonsense.

What do you think the manufacturing cost of fabrication is?
- Feedstock, most of which is, and can be, recycled,

Cost recovery for most materials is trivial.

- Power, minimal,

For 3D metal printing, lots of power.

- Cost of the unit, divided by its expected lifetime, multiplied by time to print?

Babble.

Not really, it's called amortisation, in this case of the cost of the fabricator.
"The process of reducing, or accounting for, an amount over a period according
to a plan."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amortization



These are all very small.

For techniques such as molding, yes.

And for mature fabrication technology.

I'm looking at a mature fabrication economy - when you don't buy most things
you fabricate them.

Pure fantasy.

Name-calling isn't particularly useful in a discussion.

It is not name calling, it is my opinion of the concept of people fabricating
their own things.

I'd justify my claim (that most people will be fabricating most things) by
noting that when almost any technology becomes cheap enough, it becomes
ubiquitous, and I'd cite computers, automobiles and printers as examples.

Milling machines, drill presses and lathes are quite cheap, especially when
compared to metal 3D printers, and are available at your local Harbor Freight
store.

How many people do you know that own any of the above?

Apples and oranges, they are nowhere as flexible as mature fabricator technology
would be, nor as easy to use.

Obviously you have never seen a N/C milling machine in action nor payed
for raw stock.

*paid

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

That you have no idea how things are made in the real world.

Even making bread is more difficult than simply selecting a file, loading
feedstock and pressing a button.

Obviously you have never seen a real 3D printer in action nor have you
ever made bread.

Done both; what's your point?
As I keep having to explain, I'm talking about *mature* fabrication technology.

What do you concider "mature fabrication technology"?

The way you are talking I would think that would be a Star Trek replicator.

Besides, millions of people "make their own stuff" every day, although it's
primarly digital content these days.

Otherwise know as trash, SPAM, and utter nonsense.

Irrelevant.

OK, what "stuff" would people be making at home?


--
Jim Pennino

On Sun, 09 Jul 2017 21:55:19 -0600, Greg Goss wrote:

wrote:

Composites are widely used all over the place. Many of them the Chimp
probably thinks of as 'traditional materials'. Both concrete and
mortar are composite materials and we've been using that stuff since
the Romans. Composites of various types are used all over the place,
from piping to appliances to aircraft to construction materials.

Oh, good grief. I suppose you're going to tell me that a concrete
pump is a 3-D printer, too.

Hook it to the right controller and it is. I saw a youtube of someone
printing a kid's playcastle using a concrete pump device of some kind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ5Elbvvr1M

Don't be an idiot. The thread is clearly about modern marvels, like
carbon fiber, not concrete. Geez, people turn intentionally stupid
when they run out of ideas (like leftists).

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 05:08:51 -0000, wrote:

In sci.physics Greg Goss wrote:
wrote:


Marketing types certainly do. Consumers have always bought toasters
based on their looks. After all, the thousands of different designs
all do the same thing.

And all look about the same.

Not so much:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/437412182539227477/

For any given era they look pretty much the same to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=toas...w=1327&bih=868

You'd argue that every color is the same?

No, but most are chrome.

I haven't bought a chrome one in a long time. These days they all
have an outer plastic layer. The only chrome you see is less than an
inch around the slots/

In the link I gave above, most of the toasters shown are in fact chrome.

From 3/4 of a century ago, sure. Styles change and that's exactly the
point. The statement being refuted is that all toasters "look pretty
much the same", which is simply BS.

most adjective

1 greatest in quantity, extent, or degree1 greatest in quantity, extent, or degree

2 the majority of

On Sun, 09 Jul 2017 22:15:53 -0600, Greg Goss wrote:

"Robert Clark" wrote:

I was estimating that size of the engine based on cited high horsepower for
the Tesla cars. But I was surprised the mass and volume required for the
Tesla electric motor is much smaller than a comparable gasoline engine. This
video makes a comparison of a Tesla electric motor to a typical gas engine.
The power to weight ratio is 10 times better for the Tesla electric motor(!)


I haven't been following the Tesla and similar modern electric cars.
I seem to recall that twenty years ago, they were predicting that the
big advantage of electric cars would be motors IN the wheels and no
transmission at all. Did anyone ever go that route?

Unsprung weight is not a good thing.

(My Ford hybrid has two electric motors and the gas engine. I am
having trouble finding a good overview of the transmission, but it
seems to be based on a differential concept.)

On 7/10/2017 11:31 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jul 2017 21:55:19 -0600, Greg Goss wrote:

wrote:

Composites are widely used all over the place. Many of them the Chimp
probably thinks of as 'traditional materials'. Both concrete and
mortar are composite materials and we've been using that stuff since
the Romans. Composites of various types are used all over the place,
from piping to appliances to aircraft to construction materials.

Oh, good grief. I suppose you're going to tell me that a concrete
pump is a 3-D printer, too.

Hook it to the right controller and it is. I saw a youtube of someone
printing a kid's playcastle using a concrete pump device of some kind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ5Elbvvr1M

Don't be an idiot. The thread is clearly about modern marvels, like
carbon fiber, not concrete. Geez, people turn intentionally stupid
when they run out of ideas (like leftists).


whoa! "print" a garden using dirt !

"Print" a wood framed House !

"Print" sand castles at the beach !!

"Print" new teeth in place, (dentists)

"Print" new shoes onto your feet !!!

(leftist will run with that, also CNN)

In sci.physics wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 05:08:51 -0000, wrote:

In sci.physics Greg Goss wrote:
wrote:


Marketing types certainly do. Consumers have always bought toasters
based on their looks. After all, the thousands of different designs
all do the same thing.

And all look about the same.

Not so much:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/437412182539227477/

For any given era they look pretty much the same to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=toas...w=1327&bih=868

You'd argue that every color is the same?

No, but most are chrome.

I haven't bought a chrome one in a long time. These days they all
have an outer plastic layer. The only chrome you see is less than an
inch around the slots/

In the link I gave above, most of the toasters shown are in fact chrome.

From 3/4 of a century ago, sure. Styles change and that's exactly the
point. The statement being refuted is that all toasters "look pretty
much the same", which is simply BS.

https://www.walmart.com/search/?quer...&typeahead=toa

What is currently on sale at Walmart, the majority of which are chrome or
stainless steel and are roughly a cubical box with 2 or 4 slots in the top.


--
Jim Pennino

wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jul 2017 21:55:19 -0600, Greg Goss wrote:

wrote:

Composites are widely used all over the place. Many of them the Chimp
probably thinks of as 'traditional materials'. Both concrete and
mortar are composite materials and we've been using that stuff since
the Romans. Composites of various types are used all over the place,
from piping to appliances to aircraft to construction materials.

Oh, good grief. I suppose you're going to tell me that a concrete
pump is a 3-D printer, too.

Hook it to the right controller and it is. I saw a youtube of someone
printing a kid's playcastle using a concrete pump device of some kind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ5Elbvvr1M

Don't be an idiot. The thread is clearly about modern marvels, like
carbon fiber, not concrete. Geez, people turn intentionally stupid
when they run out of ideas (like leftists).


The word being used is 'composites'. Unlike you, I don't try to read
peoples' minds to discover that they don't really mean 'composites' at
all. I take them at their word and assume that if they mean 'carbon
fiber' they will say that rather than 'composites'.


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

wrote:

In sci.physics wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 05:08:51 -0000, wrote:

In sci.physics Greg Goss wrote:
wrote:


Marketing types certainly do. Consumers have always bought toasters
based on their looks. After all, the thousands of different designs
all do the same thing.

And all look about the same.

Not so much:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/437412182539227477/

For any given era they look pretty much the same to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=toas...w=1327&bih=868

You'd argue that every color is the same?

No, but most are chrome.

I haven't bought a chrome one in a long time. These days they all
have an outer plastic layer. The only chrome you see is less than an
inch around the slots/

In the link I gave above, most of the toasters shown are in fact chrome.

From 3/4 of a century ago, sure. Styles change and that's exactly the
point. The statement being refuted is that all toasters "look pretty
much the same", which is simply BS.

https://www.walmart.com/search/?quer...&typeahead=toa

What is currently on sale at Walmart, the majority of which are chrome or
stainless steel and are roughly a cubical box with 2 or 4 slots in the top.


You might want to redo your count. I see a lot more black than chrome
(and don't confuse stainless steel with chrome, either).


--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates

On 7/10/2017 9:32 AM, Edward Prochak wrote:
On Saturday, July 8, 2017 at 9:04:04 PM UTC-4, Lofty Goat wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT), Edward Prochak
wrote:

... electric motors are much more complex than combustion motors....

What measure of complexity are you using?

--
Goat

This is in the context of 3-d printing. The mixture of materials
makes electric motors much more complex than combustion engines.
combustion engines are all metal.
electric motors have metal and insulating material.
That's the measure.
ed


you have low temp melting materials, adjacent to high temp melting
materials.

How do you print an insulated length of round wire from a normal direction
to its axis ? assume copper and teflon.

---

Ceramics have been used as insulators from the early days of electricity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_capacitor#History

Many ceramics also have high temperature resistance. The most important
reason plastic is used for wire insulation is that wire commonly has to be
bent to different directions. However, that wouldn't be required for the
wire deposited in place.

For deposition of insulated wire at right angles to the wire axis, when
deposited in horizontal slices, it would have the appearance of insulation,
then wire, insulation, then insulation, then wire, etc.

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
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--

Desktop Metal reveals how its 3D printers rapidly churn out metal objects.
Posted Apr 25, 2017 by Lora Kolodny (@lorakolodny)
https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/25/de...metal-objects/

The metal "binder jetting method" for 3D metal printing is analogous to how
amateurs make plastic 3D parts so it should be something amateurs could
copy:

Desktop Metal Production System.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUOCiRktuCo

The only complication is that it is a 3 step process: the part is 3D
printed, then put in a solvent bath to dissolve the binder, then finally
put in a high temperature oven to sinter the metal together.

...

Desktop Metal says their method for metal 3D-printing is superior to the the
laser sintering for volume production of metal parts because of the laser
methods slow rate of deposition. DM claims 100 times faster production rates
than the laser method. But since this high production rate comes from using
many more print heads, it seems to me you could get the faster deposition
rate with the laser method by using, say, 100 copies of the lasers.

Laser 3D metal printing commonly uses a 200W laser. So to scale this up 100
times would require 20,000W. The cheapest cost I've seen for lasers were by
manufacturers in China in the $15 per watt range. So 20,000W would cost in
the range of $300,000. Most likely the lasers would be the primary cost for
the machines, so call it ca. $600,000 for the full machine able to duplicate
the Desktop Metal production rate.

One laser 3D metal printing company also suggests use of wirefeed rather
than a powder bed can increase the production rate and also reduces the cost
of the material:

VIDEO: Is Wirefeed the Future of Selective Laser Sintering?
James Anderton posted on December 19, 2016 |
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...Sintering.aspx

Near the end of this video they also suggest scaling the laser up to the
15,000W range could bring the production rate to the level of other commonly
used metal production methods.


Bob Clark


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--