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SSTO's would have made possible Arthur C. Clarke's vision of 2001.
Space Travel: The Path to Human Immortality?
Space exploration might just be the key to human beings surviving mass genocide, ecocide or omnicide. July 24, 2009 "On December 31st, 1999, National Public Radio interviewed the futurist and science fiction genius Arthur C. Clarke. Since the author had forecast so many of the 20th Century's most fundamental developments, the NPR correspondent asked Clarke if anything had happened in the preceding 100 years that he never could have anticipated. 'Yes, absolutely,' Clarke replied, without a moment's hesitation. 'The one thing I never would have expected is that, after centuries of wonder and imagination and aspiration, we would have gone to the moon ... and then stopped.'" http://www.alternet.org/news/141518/...n_immortality/ I remember thinking when I first saw 2001 as a teenager and could appreciate it more, I thought it was way too optimistic. We could never have huge rotating space stations and passenger flights to orbit and Moon bases and nuclear-powered interplanetary ships by then. That's what I thought and probably most people familiar with the space program thought that. And I think I recall Clarke saying once that the year 2001 was selected as more a rhetorical, artistic flourish rather than being a prediction, 2001 being the year of the turn of the millennium (no, it was NOT in the year 2000.) However, I've now come to the conclusion those could indeed have been possible by 2001. I don't mean the alien monolith or the intelligent computer, but the spaceflights shown in the film. It all comes down to SSTO's. As I argued previously [1] these could have led and WILL lead to the price to orbit coming down to the $100 per kilo range. The required lightweight stages existed since the 60's and 70's for kerosene with the Atlas and Delta stages, and for hydrogen with the Saturn V upper stages. And the high efficiency engines from sea level to vacuum have existed since the 70's with the NK-33 for kerosene, and with the SSME for hydrogen. The kerosene SSTO's could be smaller and cheaper and would make possible small orbital craft in the price range of business jets, at a few tens of millions of dollars. These would be able to carry a few number of passengers/crew, say of the size of the Dragon capsule. But in analogy with history of aircraft these would soon be followed by large passenger craft. However, the NK-33 was of Russian design, while the required lightweight stages were of American design. But the 70's was the time of detente, with the Apollo-Soyuz mission. With both sides realizing that collaboration would lead to routine passenger spaceflight, it is conceivable that they could have come together to make possible commercial spaceflight. There is also the fact that for the hydrogen fueled SSTO's, the Americans had both the required lightweight stages and high efficiency engines, though these SSTO's would have been larger and more expensive. So it would have been advantageous for the Russians to share their engine if the American's shared their lightweight stages. For the space station, many have soured on the idea because of the ISS with the huge cost overruns. But Bigelow is planning on "space hotels" derived from NASA's Transhab[2] concept. These provide large living space at lightweight. At $100 per kilo launch costs we could form large space stations from the Transhabs linked together in modular fashion, financed purely from the tourism interests. Remember the low price to orbit allows many average citizens to pay for the cost to LEO. The Transhab was developed in the late 90's so it might be questionable that the space station could be built from them by 2001. But remember in the film the space station was in the process of being built. Also, with large numbers of passengers traveling to space it seems likely that inflatable modules would have been thought of earlier to house the large number of tourists who might want a longer stay. For the extensive Moon base, judging from the Apollo missions it might be thought any flight to the Moon would be hugely expensive. However, Robert Heinlein once said: once you get to LEO you're half way to anywhere in the Solar System. This is due to the delta-V requirements for getting out of the Earth's gravitational compared to reaching escape velocity. It is important to note then SSTO's have the capability once refueled in orbit to travel to the Moon, land, and return to Earth on that one fuel load. Because of this there would be a large market for passenger service to the Moon as well. So there would be a commercial justification for Bigelow's Transhab motels to also be transported to the Moon [3]. Initially the propellant for the fuel depots would have to be lofted from Earth. But we recently found there was water in the permanently shadowed craters on the Moon [4]. Use of this for propellant would reduce the cost to make the flights from LEO to the Moon since the delta-V needed to bring the propellant to LEO from the lunar surface is so much less than that needed to bring it from the Earth's surface to LEO. This lunar derived propellant could also be placed in depots in lunar orbit and at the Lagrange points. This would make easier flights to the asteroids and the planets. The flights to the asteroids would be especially important for commercial purposes because it is estimated even a small sized asteroid could have trillions of dollars worth of valuable minerals [5]. The availability of such resources would make it financially profitable to develop large bases on the Moon for the sake of the propellant. Another possible resource was recently discovered on the Moon: uranium [6]. Though further analysis showed the surface abundance to be much less than in Earth mines, it may be that there are localized concentrations just as there are on Earth. Indeed this appears to be the case with some heavy metals such as silver and possibly gold that appear to be concentrated in some polar craters on the Moon [7]. So even if the uranium is not as abundant as in Earth mines, it may be sufficient to be used for nuclear-powered spacecraft. Then we wouldn't have the problem of large amounts of nuclear material being lofted on rockets on Earth. The physics and engineering of nuclear powered rockets have been understood since the 60's [8]. The main impediment has been the opposition to launching large amounts of radioactive material from Earth into orbit above Earth. Then we very well could have had nuclear-powered spacecraft launching from the Moon for interplanetary missions, especially when you consider the financial incentive provided by minerals in the asteroids of the asteroid belt. Bob Clark 1.)Newsgroups: sci.space.policy, sci.astro, sci.physics, sci.space.history From: Robert Clark Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 21:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A kerosene-fueled X-33 as a single stage to orbit vehicle. http://groups.google.com/group/sci.s...5ca2dc05?hl=en 2.)TransHab. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransHab 3.)Private Moon Bases a Hot Idea for Space Pioneer. by Leonard David, SPACE.com's Space Insider Columnist Date: 14 April 2010 Time: 02:23 PM ET http://www.space.com/8217-private-mo...e-pioneer.html 4.)Mining the Moon's Water: Q & A with Shackleton Energy's Bill Stone. by Mike Wall, SPACE.com Senior WriterDate: 13 January 2011 Time: 03:57 PM ET http://www.space.com/10619-mining-mo...ne-110114.html 5.)Riches in the Sky: The Promise of Asteroid Mining. Mark Whittington, Nov 15, 2005 http://www.associatedcontent.com/art....html ?cat=58 6.)Uranium could be mined on the Moon. Uranium could one day be mined on the Moon after a Japanese spacecraft discovered the element on its surface. By Julian Ryall in Tokyo 4:58PM BST 01 Jul 2009 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...-the-Moon.html 7.)Silver, Gold, Mercury and Water Found in Moon Crater Soil by LCROSS Project. Catherine Dagger, Oct 22, 2010 http://www.associatedcontent.com/art....html?cat=1 5 8.)NERVA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NERVA |
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SSTO's would have made possible Arthur C. Clarke's vision of 2001.
I've followed this field since 1988. I do NOT foresee a chem-fueled
SSTO (unless you consider a rocket-sled boost, which might help just enough but complicates the hell out of something already very complicated). As the X-30 guys found, once you try to move beyond the slides and start designing all the parts you need, with real-world materials and real-world manufacturing processes and real-world engine technology, your vehicle grows to impossible size and your payload mass fraction falls off a cliff and hits zero. I wish the Skylon guys all the luck in the world, but I rate their chances of making a runway-to-orbit vehicle as slim to none. Matt www.mattwriter.com |
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SSTO's would have made possible Arthur C. Clarke's vision of2001.
On 7/07/2011 6:39 PM, Pat Flannery wrote:
On 7/6/2011 7:56 PM, Matt wrote: I've followed this field since 1988. I do NOT foresee a chem-fueled SSTO (unless you consider a rocket-sled boost, which might help just enough but complicates the hell out of something already very complicated). As the X-30 guys found, once you try to move beyond the slides and start designing all the parts you need, with real-world materials and real-world manufacturing processes and real-world engine technology, your vehicle grows to impossible size and your payload mass fraction falls off a cliff and hits zero. I wish the Skylon guys all the luck in the world, but I rate their chances of making a runway-to-orbit vehicle as slim to none. If their work didn't have the BS smell about it before, the book about Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed by an asteroid that first bounced off of the Alps, by two of the HOTOL/Skylon designers, pretty much made sure the warm scent of manure reached one's nostrils: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-02-04/#feature Instead of "Skylon", they should call it "Blue Parrot", which not only shows what they are trying to sell you, but actually sounds like something Britain would have worked on in the 1950's. Pat I imagine there are people in the US looking over their shoulders at Skylon, because if Reaction Engines get it work, it'll be a game changer. RE are starting testing on their proof-of-concept pre-cooler, which is a necessary step towards constructing the Sabre engine. Sylvia. |
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SSTO's would have made possible Arthur C. Clarke's vision of2001.
On 7/6/2011 7:56 PM, Matt wrote:
I've followed this field since 1988. I do NOT foresee a chem-fueled SSTO (unless you consider a rocket-sled boost, which might help just enough but complicates the hell out of something already very complicated). As the X-30 guys found, once you try to move beyond the slides and start designing all the parts you need, with real-world materials and real-world manufacturing processes and real-world engine technology, your vehicle grows to impossible size and your payload mass fraction falls off a cliff and hits zero. I wish the Skylon guys all the luck in the world, but I rate their chances of making a runway-to-orbit vehicle as slim to none. If their work didn't have the BS smell about it before, the book about Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed by an asteroid that first bounced off of the Alps, by two of the HOTOL/Skylon designers, pretty much made sure the warm scent of manure reached one's nostrils: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-02-04/#feature Instead of "Skylon", they should call it "Blue Parrot", which not only shows what they are trying to sell you, but actually sounds like something Britain would have worked on in the 1950's. Pat |
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SSTO's would have made possible Arthur C. Clarke's vision of 2001.
On Jul 7, 2:39*am, Pat Flannery wrote:
Instead of "Skylon", they should call it "Blue Parrot", which not only shows what they are trying to sell you, but actually sounds like something Britain would have worked on in the 1950's. Actually, though, there was a Skylon in Britain in the 1950s - in fact, two of them, one a sculpture, and one a rocket. Canada had - and still has - a building with that name as well, in the vicinity of Niagara Falls. But then the "Blue Peter", a semaphore flag, is also associated with a British children's television show. John Savard |
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SSTO's would have made possible Arthur C. Clarke's vision of 2001.
On Jul 6, 8:56*pm, Matt wrote:
I've followed this field since 1988. I do NOT foresee a chem-fueled SSTO (unless you consider a rocket-sled boost, which might help just enough but complicates the hell out of something already very complicated). As the X-30 guys found, once you try to move beyond the slides and start designing all the parts you need, with real-world materials and real-world manufacturing processes and real-world engine technology, your vehicle grows to impossible size and your payload mass fraction falls off a cliff and hits zero. * I wish the Skylon guys all the luck in the world, but I rate their chances of making a runway-to-orbit vehicle *as slim to none. Mattwww.mattwriter.com If they applied a couple of reusable LRBs, Skylon would work like a charm, with fuel and payload to spare. Even a pair of small Acetone Peroxide solids would get that monster off the deck and moving supersonic within 15 seconds (then hypersonic within a minute). Mook's lithium-6 fusion alternative is of course way better. http://groups.google.com/group/googl...t/topics?hl=en http://groups.google.com/group/guth-usenet/topics?hl=en http://translate.google.com/# Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet” |
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SSTO's would have made possible Arthur C. Clarke's vision of 2001.
On Jul 6, 11:09*pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 7/07/2011 6:39 PM, Pat Flannery wrote: On 7/6/2011 7:56 PM, Matt wrote: I've followed this field since 1988. I do NOT foresee a chem-fueled SSTO (unless you consider a rocket-sled boost, which might help just enough but complicates the hell out of something already very complicated). As the X-30 guys found, once you try to move beyond the slides and start designing all the parts you need, with real-world materials and real-world manufacturing processes and real-world engine technology, your vehicle grows to impossible size and your payload mass fraction falls off a cliff and hits zero. I wish the Skylon guys all the luck in the world, but I rate their chances of making a runway-to-orbit vehicle as slim to none. If their work didn't have the BS smell about it before, the book about Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed by an asteroid that first bounced off of the Alps, by two of the HOTOL/Skylon designers, pretty much made sure the warm scent of manure reached one's nostrils: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-02-04/#feature Instead of "Skylon", they should call it "Blue Parrot", which not only shows what they are trying to sell you, but actually sounds like something Britain would have worked on in the 1950's. Pat I imagine there are people in the US looking over their shoulders at Skylon, because if Reaction Engines get it work, it'll be a game changer. RE are starting testing on their proof-of-concept pre-cooler, which is a necessary step towards constructing the Sabre engine. Sylvia. No doubt ignoring their highly toxic NOx factor, just like our government ignored their cesium laced JP7. http://groups.google.com/group/googl...t/topics?hl=en http://groups.google.com/group/guth-usenet/topics?hl=en http://translate.google.com/# Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet” |
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SSTO's would have made possible Arthur C. Clarke's vision of 2001.
Sylvia Else wrote:
I imagine there are people in the US looking over their shoulders at Skylon, because if Reaction Engines get it work, it'll be a game changer. *If* they can get it to work - that's a mighty big if there. RE are starting testing on their proof-of-concept pre-cooler, which is a necessary step towards constructing the Sabre engine. One of the problems with the SABRE engine, in fact *the* over arching problem is that all of the components are essentially at or beyond the bleeding edge. It won't take many problems in integration of the various components (some experimentally proven, some not) or errors down in the third or fourth place after the decimal to doom the engine. It's one of the most complex (if not the most complex) non nuclear powerplants of air, sea, or space ever proposed. That complexity has implications for it's life cycle as well - because for a practical re-useable vehicle, maintenance man hours and the associated turn around times are *the* key barriers that must be surmounted. SABRE could easily end up like the SSME, high performance with a crippingly high maintenance load. So the long term question (once they get it to work) is - can it be kept funded and operating long enough to accumulate the neccesary operational flight experience with the system to reach the design and operational generation(s) where it is economical and practical? D. -- Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/ -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
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SSTO's would have made possible Arthur C. Clarke's vision of 2001.
In rec.arts.sf.science message 37ec07bf-d158-4c15-a87e-0b9685d70f62@em7
g2000vbb.googlegroups.com, Thu, 7 Jul 2011 06:17:05, Quadibloc posted: On Jul 7, 2:39*am, Pat Flannery wrote: Instead of "Skylon", they should call it "Blue Parrot", which not only shows what they are trying to sell you, but actually sounds like something Britain would have worked on in the 1950's. Actually, though, there was a Skylon in Britain in the 1950s - in fact, two of them, one a sculpture, On a rather unreasonably broad interpretation of "sculpture". Architecture, maybe. As expected, en.wikipedia describes it. Strangely, he.wikipedis, and no other, also does so. and one a rocket. I don't recall a rocket Skylon of that era, UK or elsewhere. -- (c) John Stockton, nr London, UK. Turnpike v6.05 MIME. Web http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQqish topics, acronyms and links; Astro stuff via astron-1.htm, gravity0.htm ; quotings.htm, pascal.htm, etc. No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News. |
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SSTO's would have made possible Arthur C. Clarke's vision of2001.
On 07/07/2011 09:39, Pat Flannery wrote:
If their work didn't have the BS smell about it before, the book about Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed by an asteroid that first bounced off of the Alps, by two of the HOTOL/Skylon designers, pretty much made sure the warm scent of manure reached one's nostrils: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-02-04/#feature Instead of "Skylon", they should call it "Blue Parrot", which not only shows what they are trying to sell you, but actually sounds like something Britain would have worked on in the 1950's. Blue Parrot was the radar system fitted to the Buccaneer. http://www.blackburn-buccaneer.co.uk...tWepSys-1.html http://www.apss.org.uk/projects/APSS...y%20System.pdf (mind the wrap) |
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