Hmmm - a robust arguement?

I always find it strange when I am told that God deserves praise for
creating all that is good in the world, but that all that is bad is the
fault of humans. Sounds a bit like marriage to me ;-)

Gary

Exactly,
A 2-way partnership.
Isn't all on God's shoulders, you know;
Others need to do their job, too!

_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
A
HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo/A

And if a deity is planting false evidence what is he hiding. It also doesn't
set a very good example to those that follow him.

Like Socrates points out Gods can only do the good things and that the bad
things are man made because Gods would not do harm to mortals. He was trying
to prove that stories about Gods doing wrong were false truths.

Allen
"Llanzlan Klazmon" wrote in message
7.6...
wrote in
om:

wrote in message
... [snip]
If you posit an infinitely powerful god, he could blink the stars,
light, and dinosaur bones into existence at any time with any
characteristics he chooses.

So no, there is no possible argument other than such a being doesn't
exist or this god wouldn't do that, so you are back to belief.

This is generically known as "last Thursdayism" and has another more
official name of "Omphalism" that gets its name from a fancy term for
belly button.

It's an insidious notion. If you posit that the evidence of age
could have been created rather than actually grown that way through
the time it appears to have done, then you have a problem. How do
you know *you* existed last Thursday? Or yesterday? Or a half hour
ago? You *could* have been created with all those memories exactly
correct to make you *think* you existed in the past. If a deity could
and would fake such things as huge quantities of fossils, diverse
genetic information, etc. etc., then why couldn't such a deity fake
your own memory?

In fact, you don't even have to be continuous. Maybe it's easier for
a deity to let you exist on every alternate second leap year, and let
other entities have existence on some kind of time share. So, you
might exist for a second, then not exist for a few years, then exist
again for a second with only the memory of the years in between. How
would you ever possibly know? If an entity exists with the ability to
create light from stars that *APPEARS* billions of years old, and to
do so effectively instantly, why shouldn't such an entity be able to
create you with the memory of having existed a half hour ago?

The only real answer to such notions is: They don't belong in science
because they are not applicable to the jobs and tasks of science.
Because there isn't really any way to predict anything from them,
or test them. If you posit an arbitrarily powerful entity that can
do such tricks, then as long as that entity chooses not to let us
know about him, (or remember knowing about him) then there's not a
damn thing we can ever do with the notion.
Socks


Yes. Another problem with the appearance of age/omphalism type of
argument is that it implies that the deity is being deliberately
deceitful - i.e planting false evidence.

LK.

richard miller wrote:

snip

I wouldn't bother asking , they'll have an answer to that an'all.

God's like that, 'he/she/it moves in mysterious ways'

I wish, when anyone questioned an assumption I made, I could simply
reply, 'I move in mysterious ways' end of story!

Fantastic get-out clause, only God could have invented it - or a
lawyer.

Substitute 'religion' for 'God" in the above and I agree whole-heartedly.
Religious clerics and lawyers are both in the same profession; manipulation
of perceived facts to support their theories.
--
~misfit~

EjP wrote:
Murf wrote:
Hello everybody,

Last week I was wandering the shops during my office lunch break when
I was harassed by a religeous zealot selling magazines and CDS.

Feeling argumentative I asked him whether he was (1) a creationalist
and (2) a "Young Universe" creationalist - i.e. one who believes that
dinosaurs etc didnt exist and that the universe is about 4,500 years
old...

When he replied that, yes, he didnt believe in evolution, dinosaurs
(and women's rights I assume) I suggested that he was a little
misguided.

In evidence I said "how come you can see all of the stars at night
then? After all, many of them are clearly more than 4,500 light years
away?"

He told me that "astronomy is a souless science - they lie to you".

Hmmph. He was obviously a ****, but is my line of arguemnt sound -
i.e. that you can see (or even detect) stars more than say 10,000
lightyears away a robust argument against a "young" view of
creation/existance?


You might as well try to explain "green" to a man
who's been blind since birth. If someone believes the literal
truth of Genesis, then they are so entirely ignorant of science
and logic that no argument on your part will sway them.

I agree, If I have the time I have a bit of fun with them, then tell them to
run along.

Those that understand the issues at all will counter your arguments
with the statement that the world was created 6000 years ago with
all the fossils, geological formations, radioisotopes, and light
from distant stars put there to make it look older as a test of
faith.

Two counterarguments immediately come to mind:
- The world was actually created 15 minutes ago with all of us
and all of our memories in place, because God is just such
a tricky SOB.

- God created the universe 15 billion years ago, via the
big bang. After that, everything happened more or less
as scientists believe, except that he put in the Genesis
story to weed out the stupid.

I like it and may have occaision to re-use it. Do you mind?
--
~misfit~

I'm reminded of a one-panel cartoon I saw somewhere (Omni magazine?)
With a physicist or mathematician writing this elaborate
equation/proof/whatever on a large blackboard, creates a gap with the
words:

...then a miracle occurs...

and continues on with mathematical symbols...

Wittengenstein [Tracticus]..
"What we cannot say,
We must pass over in silence."

[But one should come back later...
Fill in the placeholder, the empty,
But reserved, seat at the table.]

Omni?
Intersesting place...

_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
A
HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo/A

God presence or absence?
Divine or perverse pleasure taken, given?
God + Nature = Complicit
Harmony. A quircky personality,
An implicit untold story, Horney,
Yes, in ways: Karen, that is:
Less instinct gone awry, more
Culture misbegotten, a forgotten lesson!
Ordain my confession, please, Mother.
Change the culture, spare the rod.
A Mother's nod says, child good,
Yes, but clean the thwarted scene.
Enable growth, endow the culture ~
The gift was here all along,
The context, the illusion, not,
Evolving into Perfect Form.
Fotune cookie tells, t'was always there.


Our Inner Conflicts (1945), and Neurosis and Human Growth (1950).

"Psychoanalysis can free a human being who has been tied hands and feet. It
cannot give him new arms or legs. Psychoanalysis, however, has shown us that
much that we have regarded as constitutional merely represents a blockage of
growth, a blockage which can be lifted."

http://www.karenhorneycenter.org/karen.htm

_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
A
HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo/A

"When the fool walks through the street, in his lack of understanding he
calls everything foolish."

-- Ecclesiastes 10:3, New American Bible

....and for the young Fool,
All that's foolish, by design,
Divine...
_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
A
HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo/A

After that, everything happened more or less
as scientists believe, except that he put in the Genesis
story to weed out the stupid.

Every story needs a begging,
Even if only, a starting point,
A point of admission, no more,
No less...

Unfortunately, they're still here....
Relevant quotes:

"Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain."

For they themselves, daily, must work
Against the force of entropy...

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and
stupidity."

So empower such common elements,
In essence, not in competition,
To work Together...
Nothing lost, nothing gained ~
A self-same confirmation essence retained.
A bit of rain, a touch of snow ~
All told, yes, a stable paradise maintained,
Cheerfully ordained! Come play,
Each day, every day; but do your work!

[Hey!]



_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
A
HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo/A

"Murf" wrote in message
om...

Hello everybody,

Last week I was wandering the shops during my office lunch break when
I was harassed by a religeous zealot selling magazines and CDS.

Feeling argumentative I asked him whether he was (1) a creationalist
and (2) a "Young Universe" creationalist - i.e. one who believes that
dinosaurs etc didnt exist and that the universe is about 4,500 years
old...

When he replied that, yes, he didnt believe in evolution, dinosaurs
(and women's rights I assume) I suggested that he was a little
misguided.

In evidence I said "how come you can see all of the stars at night
then? After all, many of them are clearly more than 4,500 light years
away?"

He told me that "astronomy is a souless science - they lie to you".

Hmmph. He was obviously a ****, but is my line of arguemnt sound -
i.e. that you can see (or even detect) stars more than say 10,000
lightyears away a robust argument against a "young" view of
creation/existance?

Cheers!

Rob
Sheffield

Have Faith.
It has naught to do with faith in human honesty. The Words
of God and Nature are translated by Man. Either you believe
in God's integrity and in Nature's honesty, or you don't.

[Old Man]

A Mother's nod says, child good,
Yes, but clean the thwarted scene.

Memory ~
God would not be God without...
Will ~
God would not be God without...
Good ~
God would not be God without...
Nature, her bud ~
God would not be God without...
_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
A
HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo/A