Hmmm - a robust arguement?

On 09 Nov 2004 08:27:49 GMT, (FanDome123) wrote:

Raised in a Christian home and attending church every week, Bible study every
week, but going to a public school I will tell you its amazing how confused you
can get. For a long time (thru my 20's) I thought it was stupid to bring any
kid up in religion because by the time he is 17 he is going to be fractured by
science and his own curiosity. It nearly destroyed me, I came down with severe
depression.

Btw, I now have a scientific education under my belt (I'm no brain, but I can
at least follow a thread) but I was a lot happier when I had a strong
faith...life was easier that way.

The point is that given time, many die-hard Creationists (especially the ones
that try to prove to themselves thru creationscience) will have a hard time
rationalizing their beliefs in the face of science and a general (secular)
education, it also helps if they have been raised with enough independence to
acheive a strong sense of self. I am lucky as I was raised that way, but
others aren't so lucky...and thats when religion will be a detriment to them.

I am not so angry at religion now, and I look up to people (secretly) that have
a faith, because its like looking back at that innocent time of my
youth...something precious but lost.

Regards,

Tom M.

All is not lost... Do not mix religion and faith as religion is
"organized faith". God is not malevolent nor obscure, He speaks to
each of us in a very personal way to make sure that each of us can
understand, we just have to listen. In Isaiah 40, 22 we read about a
flat Earth. That does not mean that Earth is flat, it is just that
God knew that people of that time could not comprehend easily the
concept of a planet floating in space so He spoke to them in words
they could understand!

There are billions of germs, microbes and bacterium floating in our
veins, our mouth, our intestines etc... We are their universe, we
feed them and keep them warm. They have their disasters too
(penicillin). With their tiny consciousness perhaps they worship the
"Almighty Microbe" that feed them and they probably pray the
"Universal Germ" to keep them from penicillin.

You may laugh at this but this is exactly what WE do! Our germs and
us are very similar: we share the same proteins structures and the
same DNA. There is MUCH more differences between God and us then
there is between us and our germs. Who are we to say that we can
understand God? We can't even begin to understand our brothers and
sisters!

I was raised in a French catholic family (Quebec, Canada) and I turned
atheist when I "discovered" science. As I am of a very curious nature
I touched about everything: physic, chemistry, geology, biology and
quite a few others. I am a photographer ( know everything in the
physical and chemical processes of it ) and a computer scientist
specialized in... picture processing ( of course !). I spend my last
three years in pipe organs repair and tuning, talk about a change of
career!

Now at 42, I am beginning to feel that there is something else,
something impalpable that is tied not only to the Universe but also to
the human spirit. I do not know what It is (certainly not He nor She,
too human...) and I understand that I will never know in my lifetime.
I am alcoholic and in AA, the second step is that there exist
something beyond us that can restore sanity in us. Again I do not
know what It is BUT It works! So, I'm a tried and true scientist but
now I have faith; the two are not incompatible.


Have a good night!

Benoît...

I am alcoholic and in AA, ...

Isn't the second 'A' meant to be Anonymous?
To late now, you just revealed to the entire planet your identity, so whilst you walk down a street somewhere on the other side of
this planet, don't be surprised when a little old lady asks you how your last AA meeting went.
Even if you now want to take a drink - too late - no one is going to serve you

...there exist something beyond us that can restore sanity in us.
Again I do not know what It is..

This is amazing, you philosophy lies right on the nub of what COULD be most important. It just drives me mad to listen to so many
claiming what God did for them, God didn't do squat for the people in the Holocaust, nor for the people in either of the Twin
Towers!
So if there is something - not a god - with plans for all, then the question is:
What is important?

What if we discover a large enough object was going to hit Earth to destroy all life on this planet, and - for whatever reason -
there was nothing we could do to stop it?

The real question here is: Is this important enough?

Let me digress a bit. There are so many stars there must be other worlds similar to us out there. In fact some of those worlds in
the long time period for life to develop, must be destroyed - purely by the bad luck of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The sheer number of stars mean that even if life is only going to occur once in a million, we still have billions of living planets!
AND ANY ONE OF THEM COULD BE DESTROYED BY A CLOSE SUPERNOVA!
But that is just one of many possibilities, sooner or later by the laws of probability some of those worlds could be annihilated.

Unless by the power of imagination all intelligent life can come to this same conclusion - and start to make plans to do something
about it.

In the past this planet could have been 'Protected' in some way by ancient intelligence when the planet froze from pole to pole,
when we needed a Moon like the one we just happen to have, so many oil reserves, and many other unknowable incidents in the last 4
billion years.

Back to the real question, is this important enough?

Unless we show the potential to join them, and justify our existence to willingly fulfil our destiny in helping those living planets
that currently cannot help themselves, then the answer maybe NO!

For the life of me I don't know how this Universe can have any meaning, unless life that results from any process can stick their
collective (hands - tentacles) up and take responsibility for THAT definition.

For those that will discount the above theory as ridiculous and maintain if a black hole should wander into our system we would all
fall into it as would any other matter, and if something could happen, then has happened. QED?
No because if your house catches fire you leave immediately, if the Earth....


I find it unimaginable that a planet with life like Earth could be destroyed just because of bad
luck..................................could happed.


Regards
Robert

"Benoit Morrissette" wrote in message ...
On 09 Nov 2004 08:27:49 GMT, (FanDome123) wrote:

Raised in a Christian home and attending church every week, Bible study every
week, but going to a public school I will tell you its amazing how confused you
can get. For a long time (thru my 20's) I thought it was stupid to bring any
kid up in religion because by the time he is 17 he is going to be fractured by
science and his own curiosity. It nearly destroyed me, I came down with severe
depression.

Btw, I now have a scientific education under my belt (I'm no brain, but I can
at least follow a thread) but I was a lot happier when I had a strong
faith...life was easier that way.

The point is that given time, many die-hard Creationists (especially the ones
that try to prove to themselves thru creationscience) will have a hard time
rationalizing their beliefs in the face of science and a general (secular)
education, it also helps if they have been raised with enough independence to
acheive a strong sense of self. I am lucky as I was raised that way, but
others aren't so lucky...and thats when religion will be a detriment to them.

I am not so angry at religion now, and I look up to people (secretly) that have
a faith, because its like looking back at that innocent time of my
youth...something precious but lost.

Regards,

Tom M.

All is not lost... Do not mix religion and faith as religion is
"organized faith". God is not malevolent nor obscure, He speaks to
each of us in a very personal way to make sure that each of us can
understand, we just have to listen. In Isaiah 40, 22 we read about a
flat Earth. That does not mean that Earth is flat, it is just that
God knew that people of that time could not comprehend easily the
concept of a planet floating in space so He spoke to them in words
they could understand!

There are billions of germs, microbes and bacterium floating in our
veins, our mouth, our intestines etc... We are their universe, we
feed them and keep them warm. They have their disasters too
(penicillin). With their tiny consciousness perhaps they worship the
"Almighty Microbe" that feed them and they probably pray the
"Universal Germ" to keep them from penicillin.

You may laugh at this but this is exactly what WE do! Our germs and
us are very similar: we share the same proteins structures and the
same DNA. There is MUCH more differences between God and us then
there is between us and our germs. Who are we to say that we can
understand God? We can't even begin to understand our brothers and
sisters!

I was raised in a French catholic family (Quebec, Canada) and I turned
atheist when I "discovered" science. As I am of a very curious nature
I touched about everything: physic, chemistry, geology, biology and
quite a few others. I am a photographer ( know everything in the
physical and chemical processes of it ) and a computer scientist
specialized in... picture processing ( of course !). I spend my last
three years in pipe organs repair and tuning, talk about a change of
career!

Now at 42, I am beginning to feel that there is something else,
something impalpable that is tied not only to the Universe but also to
the human spirit. I do not know what It is (certainly not He nor She,
too human...) and I understand that I will never know in my lifetime.
I am alcoholic and in AA, the second step is that there exist
something beyond us that can restore sanity in us. Again I do not
know what It is BUT It works! So, I'm a tried and true scientist but
now I have faith; the two are not incompatible.


Have a good night!

Benoît...


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Reality is the best scientists are atheists Reason is science and
religion don't mix. Atheists are searching for the
truth(answers) People that are religious tell you all the answers are in
the bible. Why bother to look up. You will not see God looking
through the Hubble telescope. Hawking had this to say "If the
universe is self contained,having no boundary or edge,it would have
neither beginning nor end,it would simply be. That means there is no
place to fit God in" What faith(religion) has the
best God for creating universes? Will humankind fight a war between its
different religious groups to end up with the answer to that question?
It is a good reason to kill for. People love to kill in the name of
their God,and are doing it as I type. Yes religion
is the opium of humankind. My equation the "G" stands for
gravity. Those that tell me it stands for God are brain washed.
Bert

"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote in message
...
Reality is the best scientists are atheists Reason is science and
religion don't mix. Atheists are searching for the truth(answers)

I think it is a jump to say an Atheist is searching for truth. Atheist
simply do not recognize the possibility of a god. Doesn't that make them not
the best for science? Should science consider all possibilities until proven
impossible?

People that are religious tell you all the answers are in
the bible.

Christian or Catholic maybe.

Hawking had this to say "If the
universe is self contained,having no boundary or edge,it would have
neither beginning nor end,it would simply be. That means there is no
place to fit God in"

I've pondered this before, and discussed it with my religious friends. Can
god be part of something he created? If he created the Universe, where was
he before he did that?

What faith(religion) has the
best God for creating universes? Will humankind fight a war between its
different religious groups to end up with the answer to that question?

Some would say we have been since the dawn of mankind.

It is a good reason to kill for.

Says you, I disagree. Killing in the name of your religion does not sound
very sane to me.

People love to kill in the name of
their God,and are doing it as I type. Yes religion
is the opium of humankind. My equation the "G" stands for
gravity. Those that tell me it stands for God are brain washed.

BV.

"Benign Vanilla" wrote...
in message ...

"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote in message
...

Reality is the best scientists are atheists Reason is science and
religion don't mix. Atheists are searching for the truth(answers)

I think it is a jump to say an Atheist is searching for truth. Atheist
simply do not recognize the possibility of a god. Doesn't that make them
not
the best for science? Should science consider all possibilities until
proven
impossible?

Aren't you oversimplifying just a bit, BV? Why can't an
atheist be searching for truth? Can't an atheist search for
the truth just as well as a religious person? And what about
agnostics? What is bad for science is trying to *mix* it with
religion (or the lack of it).

Believing in God allows for a being who can, at will, break
all the laws of physics if s/he wants to. If a scientist spends
a lifetime studying these generalizations, and everywhere
finds these "laws" to hold true, then how can a belief in a
being who can operate outside this framework continue to
be justified? (with absolutely no hard evidence to support
such justification?)

People that are religious tell you all the answers are in
the bible.

Christian or Catholic maybe.

Hawking had this to say "If the
universe is self contained,having no boundary or edge,it would have
neither beginning nor end,it would simply be. That means there is no
place to fit God in"

I've pondered this before, and discussed it with my religious friends. Can
god be part of something he created? If he created the Universe, where was
he before he did that?

What faith(religion) has the
best God for creating universes? Will humankind fight a war between its
different religious groups to end up with the answer to that question?

Some would say we have been since the dawn of mankind.

It is a good reason to kill for.

Says you, I disagree. Killing in the name of your religion does not sound
very sane to me.

Lots of people would disagree with you, BV. Killing infidels
or seeking revenge against an Irish bomber... saving future
babies by murdering abortion-performing doctors or flying
jets into buildings... it's easy to tag all this "insanity," however
this does not remove the idea from people's minds that it is a
"good idea" to kill in the name of their religious faith.

People love to kill in the name of
their God,and are doing it as I type. Yes religion
is the opium of humankind. My equation the "G" stands for
gravity. Those that tell me it stands for God are brain washed.

BV.

Thus far, one of science's most unendearing facets is that
it has provided religious and/or patriotic zealots with better
and better and more efficient and effective means of killing
their enemies.

Maybe this is what Bert means?

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
Lessons of time
in the presents of rhymes...
The essence of time
is the presence of primes.

Indelibly yours,
Paine http://www.painellsworth.net

Hi Painius You post ended as to "what I might be thinking." We have
all heard "Do on to others as you would like them to do onto you."
Through out the history of humankind its killing on to each other.
"Man is Wolf to Man"(Darwin's last words) Religion has grouped people
so we know what peoples must be wiped out. Jews must have this fear in
their id today as they had it in the spacetime of Moses.(5,000 years
ago) Let me ask you this Painius "Would the world be a safer place
if there was no God?"(religion) Bert Oops Just thought of one more
question. If computers were put together by Monks would God be
programmed in?

"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote...
in message ...

Hi Painius You post ended as to "what I might be thinking." We have
all heard "Do on to others as you would like them to do onto you."
Through out the history of humankind its killing on to each other.
"Man is Wolf to Man"(Darwin's last words) Religion has grouped people
so we know what peoples must be wiped out. Jews must have this fear in
their id today as they had it in the spacetime of Moses.(5,000 years
ago)

Too many of us believe that the "Golden Rule" goes...

The one who has the gold RULES!

So some people are always trying to get the gold. They
know they can't take it with them when they die, but they
sure seem to want as much as they can get while they're
here.

Religion? Politics? Racism? Sexual Violence? These are
but copouts... mere "good" reasons to get them the gold.
Oh, there are a few people who believe that the gold
awaits them in heaven when they die, but these people
can be easily manipulated and used by others who want
to get the gold while they're still here.

Let me ask you this Painius "Would the world be a safer place
if there was no God?"(religion) Bert Oops Just thought of one more
question. If computers were put together by Monks would God be
programmed in?

If you mean, "Would the world be a safer place if there
had never been a God?" then i would have to say that
this is a good possibility, yes. But political, racist and
sexual violences, along with those who perpetrate them,
would still be around and doing people in. So not very
much safer, eh?

Bert, if religious monks had created, designed and built
computers, we would probably have to say a prayer
each time we turned it on or off, or it would shut down
and never work for us again. (Of course, many of us
do this anyway g)

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
Planets, stars and nebulae
Hold attention in the sky--
Lay in hay and squint your eye,
Lose your youth in moaning sigh,
Find the truth in every lie!

Paine http://www.painellsworth.net

Hi Painius Great answers. Religion has created "right" and wrongs" That
begs who is more right than others. The sad part of society is in this
spacetime it has the incline thinking of NASA "it is gold all the way
down. Bert

(G=EMC^2 Glazier) wrote in message ...

Hi Painius Great answers. Religion has created "right" and wrongs" That
begs who is more right than others.
[snip]


That is a problem. But would you prefer nihilism, where everything is
permitted? Then it's every man for himself, "right" is whatever's
good for you, and anarchy reigns.

But then again, maybe that IS preferable. An anarchistic mob never
developed a nuclear weapons system!

Double-A

"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote...
in message ...

Hi Painius Great answers. Religion has created "right" and wrongs" That
begs who is more right than others. The sad part of society is in this
spacetime it has the incline thinking of NASA "it is gold all the way
down. Bert

Gold turtles?

g

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
Planets, stars and nebulae
Hold attention in the sky--
Lay in hay and squint your eye,
Lose your youth in moaning sigh,
Find the truth in every lie!

Paine http://www.painellsworth.net