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Eotvos, not Newton



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 8th 15, 09:49 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Default Eotvos, not Newton

I happened to run across a news story which said that scientists had found, from
studies of a distant pulsar, that the gravitational constant was the same for
that pulsar as it is on Earth.

This puzzled me, as the article gave no details, other than a reference to the
"relativistic Shapiro delay", as to how this result was obtained. It was unclear
to me what independent, and reasonably precise, information on the masses of the
components of a pulsar system - the pulsar was in a 68-day orbit around a white
dwarf - an astronomer could obtain, in addition to the data from their
gravitational behavior.

However, I was able to locate the original paper:

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0410488

and it turned out that what the studies of the pulsar had found evidence for was
something that it was much more plausible that they could achieve.

What they found was that gravitational self-energy adds mass, by the E=mc^2
relationship, to bodies in the same manner as any other energy. This is known as
the "Strong Equivalence Principle", and accounts for the non-linearity of General
Relativity.

John Savard
  #2  
Old August 8th 15, 11:09 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Lord Vath
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Default Eotvos, not Newton

On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 01:49:08 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
wrote this crap:

I happened to run across a news story which said that scientists had found, from
studies of a distant pulsar, that the gravitational constant was the same for
that pulsar as it is on Earth.

This puzzled me, as the article gave no details, other than a reference to the
"relativistic Shapiro delay", as to how this result was obtained. It was unclear
to me what independent, and reasonably precise, information on the masses of the
components of a pulsar system - the pulsar was in a 68-day orbit around a white
dwarf - an astronomer could obtain, in addition to the data from their
gravitational behavior.

However, I was able to locate the original paper:

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0410488

and it turned out that what the studies of the pulsar had found evidence for was
something that it was much more plausible that they could achieve.

What they found was that gravitational self-energy adds mass, by the E=mc^2
relationship, to bodies in the same manner as any other energy. This is known as
the "Strong Equivalence Principle", and accounts for the non-linearity of General
Relativity.

John Savard


I'll have to read that paper carefully. I think the Dark Matter is
hogwash and I've suspected that additional gravitational mass hasn't
been found yet. I believe the gravitational constant is really a
variable. All numbers are really variables.


This signature is now the ultimate
power in the universe
  #3  
Old August 8th 15, 03:32 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Default Eotvos, not Newton

On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 06:09:16 -0400, Lord Vath
wrote:

I'll have to read that paper carefully. I think the Dark Matter is
hogwash and I've suspected that additional gravitational mass hasn't
been found yet. I believe the gravitational constant is really a
variable. All numbers are really variables.


Your "belief" is just a kind of non-theistic religion. Science
considers evidence. Rational people base their beliefs (particularly
in regards to the laws of nature) on evidence, and the relative
strengths of different lines of evidence. You seem to be basing yours
on some sort of abstract philosophical view.
  #4  
Old August 8th 15, 03:43 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Lord Vath
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Default Eotvos, not Newton

On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 08:32:13 -0600, Chris L Peterson
wrote this crap:

On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 06:09:16 -0400, Lord Vath
wrote:

I'll have to read that paper carefully. I think the Dark Matter is
hogwash and I've suspected that additional gravitational mass hasn't
been found yet. I believe the gravitational constant is really a
variable. All numbers are really variables.


Your "belief" is just a kind of non-theistic religion. Science
considers evidence. Rational people base their beliefs (particularly
in regards to the laws of nature) on evidence, and the relative
strengths of different lines of evidence. You seem to be basing yours
on some sort of abstract philosophical view.


No, it's true. Of course you're and idiot and can't understand these
things.

Here's a simple test you can do at home. Take two identical glasses,
(or coffee cups if you prefer.) And fill one of them to the top. Then
see if you can pour 1/2 of the liquid into the other. It turns out
you can't make them equal. Maybe one is greater than the other or
maybe you've spilled some. It never comes out equal. Therefore 1/2
is not equal to 1/2. Even if you pour the entire contents into the
other glass, some is still left in the original glass. Therefore 1
does not equal 1. I hope this is not too hard for your simple mind.

It's a simple scientific experiment. The philosophical question is,
"Is the glass half full, or half empty."


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  #5  
Old August 8th 15, 04:03 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Eotvos, not Newton

On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 10:43:55 -0400, Lord Vath
wrote:

Here's a simple test you can do at home. Take two identical glasses,
(or coffee cups if you prefer.) And fill one of them to the top. Then
see if you can pour 1/2 of the liquid into the other. It turns out
you can't make them equal. Maybe one is greater than the other or
maybe you've spilled some. It never comes out equal. Therefore 1/2
is not equal to 1/2. Even if you pour the entire contents into the
other glass, some is still left in the original glass. Therefore 1
does not equal 1. I hope this is not too hard for your simple mind.

It's a simple scientific experiment. The philosophical question is,
"Is the glass half full, or half empty."


It's not an experiment that teaches us anything. Conceptually, I can
make a device that transfers material between the glasses one atom at
a time. Such a device (which is an engineering challenge, but which
certainly violates no physical laws) can create two glasses which have
exactly the same volume of water.

You are confusing measurement error and poor experiment design with
something fundamental about numbers. Do the same experiment with
marbles and you'll understand nature better.
  #6  
Old August 8th 15, 04:48 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Lord Vath
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Posts: 831
Default Eotvos, not Newton

On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 09:03:16 -0600, Chris L Peterson
wrote this crap:

On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 10:43:55 -0400, Lord Vath
wrote:

Here's a simple test you can do at home. Take two identical glasses,
(or coffee cups if you prefer.) And fill one of them to the top. Then
see if you can pour 1/2 of the liquid into the other. It turns out
you can't make them equal. Maybe one is greater than the other or
maybe you've spilled some. It never comes out equal. Therefore 1/2
is not equal to 1/2. Even if you pour the entire contents into the
other glass, some is still left in the original glass. Therefore 1
does not equal 1. I hope this is not too hard for your simple mind.

It's a simple scientific experiment. The philosophical question is,
"Is the glass half full, or half empty."


It's not an experiment that teaches us anything.


Certainly not you. You're a cementhead.

Conceptually, I can
make a device that transfers material between the glasses one atom at
a time.


That's bull****. I'll bet you ten bucks you can't.

Such a device (which is an engineering challenge, but which
certainly violates no physical laws) can create two glasses which have
exactly the same volume of water.


Not a chance. Yer grasping at straws.

You are confusing measurement error and poor experiment design with
something fundamental about numbers.


I'm not the one who's confused. But you have a point. All
measurement is relative.

Do the same experiment with
marbles and you'll understand nature better.


OK. I'll take a marble and crack it in half. I'll get the same
results.

But are you talking about taking a bag of marbles and counting out
half of them? Not all the marbles are the same. Some will have
different weights and colors. You're still the fool here.


This signature is now the ultimate
power in the universe
  #7  
Old August 8th 15, 05:03 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Eotvos, not Newton

On Sat, 08 Aug 2015 11:48:01 -0400, Lord Vath
wrote:

Conceptually, I can
make a device that transfers material between the glasses one atom at
a time.


That's bull****. I'll bet you ten bucks you can't.


Conceptually, I already did. You lose.


Such a device (which is an engineering challenge, but which
certainly violates no physical laws) can create two glasses which have
exactly the same volume of water.


Not a chance. Yer grasping at straws.


Experiments like this are done all the time in labs. Traps are
populated with a fixed count of atoms.

You are confusing measurement error and poor experiment design with
something fundamental about numbers.


I'm not the one who's confused. But you have a point. All
measurement is relative.


That's not my point. And not all measurement is relative. If you're
measuring volume, that's absolute. There are a finite, countable
number of atoms (or marbles) in the container, and that number is
relative to nothing.

Do the same experiment with
marbles and you'll understand nature better.


OK. I'll take a marble and crack it in half. I'll get the same
results.


In nature, there's no evidence that anything can be broken down
indefinitely. Time, space, energy... all have a smallest unit. At that
point, you're just counting, and count is absolute.

But are you talking about taking a bag of marbles and counting out
half of them? Not all the marbles are the same. Some will have
different weights and colors. You're still the fool here.


You don't understand the experiment.
  #8  
Old August 8th 15, 05:08 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris.B[_2_]
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Posts: 2,410
Default Eotvos, not Newton

On Saturday, 8 August 2015 17:03:16 UTC+2, Chris L Peterson wrote:

Do the same experiment with marbles and you'll understand nature better.


Please, Sir! Vath hasn't two marbles to rub together, Sir! ;ø]
  #9  
Old August 8th 15, 05:38 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Posts: 8,478
Default Eotvos, not Newton

On Saturday, August 8, 2015 at 5:03:38 PM UTC+1, Chris L Peterson wrote:

In nature, there's no evidence that anything can be broken down
indefinitely. Time, space, energy... all have a smallest unit. At that
point, you're just counting, and count is absolute.


Any airhead can make an assertion without backing it up or are unthinking about it and you are not the first to assert this nonsense of upper and lower limits within human understanding. The non-periodic string of digits that make up the Pi proportion are case in point where the sequence is neither ordered nor random hence a lower geometric limit like the Planck length is mere mathematician's fancy.

I dealt with this a long time ago as a kind of lightweight exercise that empiricists find 'profound' or something like that. From 2002 one of the relativity guys made a quick exit like so many others who suddenly discovered the Usenet wasn't an extension of their lectures nor do reputations count, at least not tangling with me.


(John Baez) wrote in message ...
In article ,
Oriel36 wrote something like:

For those who prize logic, this Planck length is the funniest
thing; seeing that this thread covers a wide range of groups it is
worthwhile posting a simple geometric refutation.

Draw a circumference around a Planck length, the circumference being of
course 3.141 times greater than the length, if you can determine a
circumference you can also determine a radius which is half the
original length and from this discrete length you begin again
constructing a circumference around this half Planck length.

What you get geometrically is a form of the Zeno paradox and you guys
take the Planck length seriously!


Actually this sort of argument goes back to the "Mutakallimun",
Jewish and Islamic philosopher/theologians of the 10th and 11th centuries
AD. Many of these were very fond of atomism, taking it beyond Democritus
to argue that *everything* was made of discrete units - even space and
time. Others brought forth certain paradoxes to disprove this.


Paradoxes,and relativity relies heavily on paradoxes,cannot by their
nature prove or disprove anything,that is why they are called
paradoxes.Relativity cannot be disproved for it relies on valid
relative motions but as Newton stated- "but relative motions, in one
and the same body, are innumerable, according to the various relations
it bears to external bodies, and like other relations, are altogether
destitute of any real effect, any otherwise than they may partake of
that one only true motion"

In particular, some pointed out that if the universe was made of a
cubic lattice with sides 1 unit long, the diagonal of a square on
this lattice would be about 1.414 units long, so that in some sense
the smaller distance .414 must "exist". However, the believers in
a minimal distance replied that the sense in which this distance
"existed" was purely hypothetical, i.e., imaginable but not actually
realized by a physical object.


The argument you use above is an insult to intelligence and cannot be
commented on for weak intellectual reasons except that in defining a
circumference from a diameter it is possible to then distinguish a
radius which is half the original lenght (diameter) and thereby
discerning an new circumference.My argument is precise and without
knowing or caring whether it is new or not,the fact that physics
determines a geometric cutoff point such as the Planck lenght only
exposes your lack of wisdom on these matters and I will certainly not
chase a poor intellect around no matter how highly regarded.The point
is that I am correct and you are not with a few here with the good
sense to know it.

For more details see the chapter on atomism he

Harry Wolfson, The Philosophy of the Kalam, Harvard University Press,
1976.

or this book, which unfortunately I have not been able to obtain:

Alnoor Dhanani, The Physical Theory of Kalam: Atoms, Space, and
Void in Basrian Mu'tazili Cosmology, E. J. Brill, 1994.


For more details on the diameter/circumference relationship on the
Planck lenght use common sense or Newton.

"It may also be objected, that if the ultimate ratios of evanescent
quantities are given, their ultimate magnitudes will be also given:
and so all quantities will consist of indivisibles, which is contrary
to what Euclid has demonstrated concerning incommensurables, in the
10th Book of his Elements. But this objection is founded on a false
supposition. For those ultimate ratios with which quantities vanish
are not truly the ratios of ultimate quantities, but limits towards
which the ratios of quantities decreasing without limit do always
converge; and to which they approach nearer than by any given
difference, but never go beyond, nor in effect attain to, till the
quantities are diminished in infinitum. This thing will appear more
evident in quantities infinitely great. If two quantities, those
difference is given, be augmented in the ultimate ratio of these
quantities will be given, to wit, the ratio of equality; but it does
not from thence follow, that the ultimate or greatest quantities
themselves, whose ratio that is, will be given. Therefore if in what
follows, for the sake of being more easily understood, I should happen
to mention quantities as least, or evanescent, or ultimate, you are
not to suppose that quantities of any determinate magnitude are meant,
but such as are conceived to be always diminished without end."
[Principia]

  #10  
Old August 8th 15, 05:51 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Eotvos, not Newton

On Sat, 8 Aug 2015 09:08:56 -0700 (PDT), "Chris.B"
wrote:

On Saturday, 8 August 2015 17:03:16 UTC+2, Chris L Peterson wrote:

Do the same experiment with marbles and you'll understand nature better.


Please, Sir! Vath hasn't two marbles to rub together, Sir! ;ø]


Oh, he's short quite a few, but there are at least two rattling around
in there. Something's making the noise.
 




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