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John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 12th 18, 10:11 PM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 516
Default John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?

John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.

No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.

With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
flag on this.

John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were
alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.

Was John Young racist?

And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.

~ CT
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  #2  
Old January 13th 18, 03:18 PM posted to sci.space.history
Jeff Findley[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,398
Default John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?

In article ,
says...

John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.

No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.

With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
flag on this.

John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were
alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.

Was John Young racist?

And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.

~ CT


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What evidence do
you have to support this extraordinary claim?

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #3  
Old January 15th 18, 07:04 AM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 516
Default John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?

From Jeff Findley:
In article ,
says...

John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an
important aspect that ties straight in to space history.

No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.

With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
flag on this.

John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were
alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.

Was John Young racist?

And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What evidence do
you have to support this extraordinary claim?


As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
announcement:

https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young

Why does no one else see this? Or maybe everyone does, and like the emperor's
clothes, they'd all just prefer that we remain silent about what is so obvious.

Martin Luther King Jr famously spoke out against this brand of racism in his I
Have A Dream speech. MLK's vision was that racism would decline with
asymptotic decay toward nothingness. But NASA didn't fully comply. Instead
they supported John Young and what he did to promote racism.

In the same year that MLK was assassinated, humanity flew its first mission to
the Moon. And maybe it was better that MLK was not around to see NASA
prominently establish racist symbolism on the Moon.

Here we are 50 years later, and NASA still continues to promote this obvious
racism. Obvious to me, at least. It's right there on that tribute page. And
you don't have to read a single word to see it.

For anyone who may not remember the specific words from MLK's most iconic
speech, here is the 'Let Freedom Ring' conclusion ...the last 90 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yThJm7Wv7Q

Today is Martin Luther King Day. The national holiday honoring the anniversary
of his birth 89 years ago. Apollo 16 launched on the 9th anniversary of MLK's
Letter from Birmingham Jail. That start of the penultimate moonwalk mission
happened 4 years and a week from the day of MLK's funeral. The mission ended on
Coretta Scott King's 45th birthday, which was also 111 years from the day that
Abraham Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus at the start of the US Civil
War.

The first person in space, Yuri Gagarin, launched on the 100th anniversary of
the firing on Fort Sumter. John Young's STS-1 mission happened exactly 20 years
later, to the very day. "One score", as Lincoln would have said.

These are all curious coincidences that speak to the big picture that the Space
Race was a battle for the high ground in the nuclear age of ICBMs and the Cold
War. One set of values came with authoritarianism, oppression and slavery,
while the other claimed to promote freedom from such oppression and freedom
from slavery.

The day that John Young first set foot on the Moon was the 136th anniversary of
the Battle of San Jacinto, which established Texas independence. This battle
was commemorated by naming US Navy ships after it, including the aircraft
carrier that George HW Bush flew his TBF Avenger off of. Here is a photo of
George Bush looking on as John Young is presented with the NASA Distinguished
Service Medal after his STS-1 mission:
http://www.johnwyoung.org/bio/enlarge-bio/jy3001.htm


It is quite curious that there was no push back when John Young made the
decision to establish a Moon base that serves to this day as a tribute to the
legacy of those who were pro-slavery.

No one at NASA nixed this in 1972, and here we are half a century later, and
no one at NASA still seems to care. No one in the United States. No one on
Planet Earth. Or at least, if there is anyone who cares, they have kept quite
silent about it. Throughout all of John Young's life.

~ CT
  #4  
Old January 15th 18, 09:30 AM posted to sci.space.history
snidely
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,143
Default John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?

Stuf4 speculated:
From Jeff Findley:


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What evidence do
you have to support this extraordinary claim?


As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
announcement:

https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young


I'm sorry, but any racism on that page is a little too subtle for me.

Unless your charge is that John Young agreed to join the astronaut corp
before the astronaut corps included anyone of non-European ancestry.

(That didn't happen until Gemini, right? And didn't happen again until
the shuttle era.)

/dps

--
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)
  #5  
Old January 15th 18, 12:34 PM posted to sci.space.history
Jeff Findley[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,398
Default John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?

In article ,
says...
snip

I removed most of your babbling. Bizarre coincidences of dates don't
make John Young a racist. Nice try.

NASA did, in fact, make a push during the shuttle program to expand the
astronaut corps to more than just ex-military pilots who quite obviously
did tend to be middle aged and white (which would be an issue with the
military, not NASA). Unfortunately, the space shuttle, being a "hot"
glider upon landing, required "hot" pilots, so institutional inertia
kept the commander and pilot list drawing from that ex-military pilot
candidate pool a lot longer than the rest of the crew.

Going forward, deep space missions will be more like long duration
submarine operation than "hot" airplane tests. Look for more changes
(slowly, of course) in how NASA picks astronauts as NASA transitions to
even more very long duration missions.

It is quite curious that there was no push back when John Young made the
decision to establish a Moon base that serves to this day as a tribute to the
legacy of those who were pro-slavery.


There never was and never has been a "moon base". Now you're just
sounding like a complete nutter.

No one at NASA nixed this in 1972, and here we are half a century later, and
no one at NASA still seems to care. No one in the United States. No one on
Planet Earth. Or at least, if there is anyone who cares, they have kept quite
silent about it. Throughout all of John Young's life.


I still don't see what in the hell you're talking about. Nothing is
"obvious". Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
You haven't provided any evidence that makes any damn sense to me, let
alone extraordinary evidence.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #6  
Old January 15th 18, 01:23 PM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 516
Default John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?

From snidely:
Stuf4 speculated:
From Jeff Findley:


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What evidence do
you have to support this extraordinary claim?


As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
announcement:

https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young


I'm sorry, but any racism on that page is a little too subtle for me.

Unless your charge is that John Young agreed to join the astronaut corp
before the astronaut corps included anyone of non-European ancestry.

(That didn't happen until Gemini, right? And didn't happen again until
the shuttle era.)


John Young's pro-slavery message is right there in the very first photo at the
top of the page. Here it is with all hint of subtlety removed:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...erate_Flag.jpg

Young is no longer around to share his 2018 perspective on this tribute he had
chosen for 1972. Perhaps Charlie Duke would like to give us his. Imagine if
today someone wanted to name the most prominent landmark on a Moon mission in a
way that honored prominent people who were willing to fight and die in order to
preserve the institution of slavery.

It would be interesting to get Ken Mattingly's take on this issue as well. All
3 members of the A16 crew had strong ties to the deep South.

One of the three chiseled permanently into Stone Mountain is Jefferson Davis,
CSA President. A point of irony is that when John Young retired, the JSC
Director was Jefferson Davis, last name Howell.

The issue being called into question here is racism. Do I think John Young was
a racist? No. But he sent a clear message that is entrenched in the legacy of
slavery. And that makes him a racist sympathizer. Or at the very least, it
makes him insensitive to the issue of racism. Now this might have been the
norm of the 1960s and early 70s. But he had plenty of decades afterward to
make amends for this, and I never saw him try. Nor did I ever see anyone call
him out on this. I never did myself. So that constitutes tacit support of
what he did.

Way back in 1967, the first black person was selected to be an astronaut. Had
Robert Lawrence lived, it's easy to imagine that he would have been picked up
in Group 7 with the other MOL folks. Now imagine that he had gotten assigned
to John Young's support crew on A16. The question here is whether that most
prominent feature of the landing site in the Descartes Highlands would still
have been referred to by this name with this deep racist history. Or would
John Young have had some epiphany when looking at this dark-skinned member of
his support crew?

But that version of history was not to be. Lawrence died in the same year he
had gotten selected. An astronaut like John Glenn had much more political and
social awareness than John Young did. And interestingly enough, John Glenn
died 49 years to the day after Lawrence died. Lawrence was 32. Glenn lived to
almost 3-times that age.

Perhaps Charlie Duke will live well into his 90s like Glenn did. And if so,
that will give him plenty of years to reflect on the legacy that he and John
Young have supported with their choice of this one particular name.

Stone Mountain.

This monument to the pro-slavery effort is so iconic, this is why Martin Luther
King Jr focused on it as the first place he stated in his I Have A Dream speech
as the prototype of the places that need to change, if his vision of a non-
racist future are to be realized. His speech is so inspiring that it is worth posting again:

'Let Freedom Ring' conclusion ...the last 90 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yThJm7Wv7Q


Consideration is being given to having a permanent "Freedom Bell" right there
at Stone Mountain. That would go a long way toward making amends. The open
question here is with NASA, and what they plan on doing about their role in
supporting this pro-racist message that Apollo 16 left on the Moon.

Charlie Bolden, as the first black person to be the full NASA Administrator,
did not ever address this issue, as far as I saw. Neither did Fred Gregory
before him. Fred had two months to shine a light on this. Bolden had the
better part of a decade.

But it wasn't until 2017 that this issue really came to a head, and even then
NASA was never called to task.

Here is an idea...

NASA can proclaim that Orion's DPS engine bell is an MLK-tribute Freedom Bell.

Bonus points if you get someone out there to actually clang it. Even better if
Charlie Duke & TK Mattingly get on board with this idea. Now that John is
gone, those two would be the most fitting people to participate in this
proclamation.

~ CT
  #7  
Old January 15th 18, 01:41 PM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 516
Default John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?

From Jeff Findley:
In article ,
says...
snip

I removed most of your babbling. Bizarre coincidences of dates don't
make John Young a racist. Nice try.

NASA did, in fact, make a push during the shuttle program to expand the
astronaut corps to more than just ex-military pilots who quite obviously
did tend to be middle aged and white (which would be an issue with the
military, not NASA). Unfortunately, the space shuttle, being a "hot"
glider upon landing, required "hot" pilots, so institutional inertia
kept the commander and pilot list drawing from that ex-military pilot
candidate pool a lot longer than the rest of the crew.

Going forward, deep space missions will be more like long duration
submarine operation than "hot" airplane tests. Look for more changes
(slowly, of course) in how NASA picks astronauts as NASA transitions to
even more very long duration missions.

It is quite curious that there was no push back when John Young made the
decision to establish a Moon base that serves to this day as a tribute to the
legacy of those who were pro-slavery.


There never was and never has been a "moon base". Now you're just
sounding like a complete nutter.


Stone Mountain was the "base" for the Apollo 16 mission in exactly the same
way that Tranquility was the Base for Apollo 11.


No one at NASA nixed this in 1972, and here we are half a century later, and
no one at NASA still seems to care. No one in the United States. No one on
Planet Earth. Or at least, if there is anyone who cares, they have kept quite
silent about it. Throughout all of John Young's life.


I still don't see what in the hell you're talking about. Nothing is
"obvious". Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
You haven't provided any evidence that makes any damn sense to me, let
alone extraordinary evidence.


This is hardly an extraordinary claim. It is a simple fact. John Young chose a
pro-slavery monument as what they decided to honor with the name they picked
for the most prominent lunar feature where they landed on this mission.

Perhaps DPS will become an early supporter of this proposed idea to designate
Orion's DPS engine as the lunar Freedom Bell.

An excellent time to hold this ceremony would be on the 50th anniversary of
MLK's death. That is coming up in 3 months from now. And that is also the
month of the anniversary of the Apollo 16 mission.

~ CT
  #8  
Old January 15th 18, 02:06 PM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 516
Default John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...erate_Flag.jpg

The next iteration of this photoshopping effort would be to give the LM a coat
of bright orange paint, or replacing the gold mylar with orange mylar to
minimize the weight penalty ...renaming Orion "the General Lee", and giving
Young & Duke the nickname "Dukes of Hazard" ...with it being a real hazard to
persist in supporting the legacy of slavery well into the 21st century.

~ CT



On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 6:23:35 AM UTC-6, Stuf4 wrote:
From snidely:
Stuf4 speculated:
From Jeff Findley:


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What evidence do
you have to support this extraordinary claim?

As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
announcement:

https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young


I'm sorry, but any racism on that page is a little too subtle for me.

Unless your charge is that John Young agreed to join the astronaut corp
before the astronaut corps included anyone of non-European ancestry.

(That didn't happen until Gemini, right? And didn't happen again until
the shuttle era.)


John Young's pro-slavery message is right there in the very first photo at the
top of the page. Here it is with all hint of subtlety removed:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...erate_Flag.jpg

Young is no longer around to share his 2018 perspective on this tribute he had
chosen for 1972. Perhaps Charlie Duke would like to give us his. Imagine if
today someone wanted to name the most prominent landmark on a Moon mission in a
way that honored prominent people who were willing to fight and die in order to
preserve the institution of slavery.

It would be interesting to get Ken Mattingly's take on this issue as well. All
3 members of the A16 crew had strong ties to the deep South.

One of the three chiseled permanently into Stone Mountain is Jefferson Davis,
CSA President. A point of irony is that when John Young retired, the JSC
Director was Jefferson Davis, last name Howell.

The issue being called into question here is racism. Do I think John Young was
a racist? No. But he sent a clear message that is entrenched in the legacy of
slavery. And that makes him a racist sympathizer. Or at the very least, it
makes him insensitive to the issue of racism. Now this might have been the
norm of the 1960s and early 70s. But he had plenty of decades afterward to
make amends for this, and I never saw him try. Nor did I ever see anyone call
him out on this. I never did myself. So that constitutes tacit support of
what he did.

Way back in 1967, the first black person was selected to be an astronaut. Had
Robert Lawrence lived, it's easy to imagine that he would have been picked up
in Group 7 with the other MOL folks. Now imagine that he had gotten assigned
to John Young's support crew on A16. The question here is whether that most
prominent feature of the landing site in the Descartes Highlands would still
have been referred to by this name with this deep racist history. Or would
John Young have had some epiphany when looking at this dark-skinned member of
his support crew?

But that version of history was not to be. Lawrence died in the same year he
had gotten selected. An astronaut like John Glenn had much more political and
social awareness than John Young did. And interestingly enough, John Glenn
died 49 years to the day after Lawrence died. Lawrence was 32. Glenn lived to
almost 3-times that age.

Perhaps Charlie Duke will live well into his 90s like Glenn did. And if so,
that will give him plenty of years to reflect on the legacy that he and John
Young have supported with their choice of this one particular name.

Stone Mountain.

This monument to the pro-slavery effort is so iconic, this is why Martin Luther
King Jr focused on it as the first place he stated in his I Have A Dream speech
as the prototype of the places that need to change, if his vision of a non-
racist future are to be realized. His speech is so inspiring that it is worth posting again:

'Let Freedom Ring' conclusion ...the last 90 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yThJm7Wv7Q


Consideration is being given to having a permanent "Freedom Bell" right there
at Stone Mountain. That would go a long way toward making amends. The open
question here is with NASA, and what they plan on doing about their role in
supporting this pro-racist message that Apollo 16 left on the Moon.

Charlie Bolden, as the first black person to be the full NASA Administrator,
did not ever address this issue, as far as I saw. Neither did Fred Gregory
before him. Fred had two months to shine a light on this. Bolden had the
better part of a decade.

But it wasn't until 2017 that this issue really came to a head, and even then
NASA was never called to task.

Here is an idea...

NASA can proclaim that Orion's DPS engine bell is an MLK-tribute Freedom Bell.

Bonus points if you get someone out there to actually clang it. Even better if
Charlie Duke & TK Mattingly get on board with this idea. Now that John is
gone, those two would be the most fitting people to participate in this
proclamation.

~ CT


  #9  
Old January 15th 18, 06:35 PM posted to sci.space.history
Jeff Findley[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,398
Default John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?

In article ,
says...

From snidely:
Stuf4 speculated:
From Jeff Findley:


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What evidence do
you have to support this extraordinary claim?

As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
announcement:

https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young

I'm sorry, but any racism on that page is a little too subtle for me.

Unless your charge is that John Young agreed to join the astronaut corp
before the astronaut corps included anyone of non-European ancestry.

(That didn't happen until Gemini, right? And didn't happen again until
the shuttle era.)


John Young's pro-slavery message is right there in the very first photo at the
top of the page. Here it is with all hint of subtlety removed:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...erate_Flag.jpg


From above:

This image is a photoshopped manipulation of File:John W. Young on
the Moon.jpg in which the flag of the United States of America has
been replaced with the Confederate flag. The astronaut in this photo
is John Young, commander of Apollo 16, and in the background is the
land feature which was named Stone Mountain in honor of the
Confederate States of America monument in Georgia, the site of the
founding of the second Ku Klux Klan in 1915, and featuring very large
carvings of three Confederate leaders of the US Civil War: President
Jefferson Davis, General Robert E. Lee and General 'Stonewall'
Jackson.

Ok, a photoshopped picture with an assertion that the lunar feature
"Stone Mountain" was named after Stone Mountain in Georgia (we'll get to
that later). From Wikipedia:

Stone Mountain is a quartz monzonite dome monadnock and the site
of Stone Mountain Park near Stone Mountain, Georgia. At its
summit, the elevation is 1,686 feet (514 m) MSL and 825 feet
(251 m) above the surrounding area. Stone Mountain is well-known
for not only its geology, but also the enormous rock relief on
its north face, the largest bas-relief in the world.[1] The
carving depicts three Confederate figures during the Civil War:
Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson.

Young is no longer around to share his 2018 perspective on this
tribute he had
chosen for 1972. Perhaps Charlie Duke would like to give us his. Imagine if
today someone wanted to name the most prominent landmark on a Moon mission in a
way that honored prominent people who were willing to fight and die in order to
preserve the institution of slavery.

It would be interesting to get Ken Mattingly's take on this issue as well. All
3 members of the A16 crew had strong ties to the deep South.


It's your assertion that John Young must be either a racist or racist
sympathizer because either he, or his crewmate, named Stone Mountain on
the moon after Stone Mountain in Georgia. Alrighty then.

Time for primary sources, since you're too lazy to substantiate your own
assertions with such.

Apollo 16 Lunar Surface Journal - Post Landing
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/a16.postland.html

From above:

[Duke - ... And then Stone Mountain, we picked that
'cause it looked like Stone Mountain in Georgia. ...

So, right here is a quote from Duke that they picked the name because
that lunar feature "looked like Stone Mountain in Georgia".

Your assertion that the crew must be racist based on this one choice of
a name is very tenuous at best.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
 




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