Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 12:07:18 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

And Galileo's real problem

his problem was that he, too, was an asshole who
****ed off the wrong people.

No, his problem was that the "wrong people" had the power to threaten him with
torture and place him under house arrest, instead of just suffering their
annoyance either in silence, or with free speech of their own.

Had Italy in his day been under a modern democratic political system with
religious pluralism and legal protections for free speech and individual rights,
his situation could not possibly happen.

So his problem was that the Catholic Church was illegitimately exercising the
power of making law without being a modern democratically-elected government.

John Savard

On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 12:07:18 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

Which is, in fact, what it was at that point. It couldn't be
confirmed until Newton invented calculus.

This is an interesting point.

It is true that after Newton, the controversy about heliocentricism versus
geocentricism died.

Basically, as I understand it, it was because Newton came up with this thing
called "gravity", and once it was clear how that explained what Kepler matched
to observations, the fact that the Sun was *bigger and heavier* than the Earth
made it pretty obvious what was revolving around what.

This, of course, goes a long part of the way to explain why Oriel36, who praises
the insights of Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler, but condemns Newton as setting
science off on the wrong foot, seem merely amusing or bizarre to many here.

As even Oriel36 knows, Newton's _Principia_ is complicated and hard to read.
This is because, calculus having been newly invented independently by both him
and Leibnitz, he felt it necessary to translate his insights into how inverse-
square gravitation led to Kepler's Laws into the language of basic geometry and
algebra.

That Newton would invent calculus, and apparently be content with *keeping it to
himself* rather than explaining this wonderful new tool so as to further the
progress of science and technology... is a thing which comes close to motivating
me to criticize him in language no less scathing than what Oriel36 uses, but
that's quite another issue.

Thus, it is Leibnitz we have to thank for living in the modern world that
calculus has made possible. Not those who were so foolish as to think they could
keep the dodecahedron a secret when the icosahedron was visible in public, or
those who followed in the misguided footsteps of the Pythagoreans.

John Savard

On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 12:41:07 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

(And yes, he was a _violent_ extremist.)

It's true he had unorthodox religious views. The "violent" part comes as news to
me. Of course, armed overthrow of a dictatorship, which is what the Catholic
Church exercised at that time, is legitimate, and so he could still be a martyr.

While he anticipated that the stars in the sky were themselves suns which could
have planets of their own in orbit around them - a thing we finally, after all
these centuries, are in the process of directly confirming - I have no idea if
he had been visionary enough to also anticipate modern-day representative
democracy.

John Savard

On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 8:44:01 AM UTC-6, RichA wrote:
Towards the end, Sagan, formerly a productive astrophysicist from Cornell and
publicizer of astronomy became a bit of a pariah, wandering around, screeching
at anyone who would listen about the impending doom of "nuclear winter." Seems
like Tyson might be going the same way, or, he could just be trying to promote
another book. "Publish or perish?"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/neil-de...essory-to-war/

Opposing the militarization of space isn't loony, even if it is a political
stance one might disagree with.

On the other hand, taking Trump's "Space Force" seriously... particularly as he
seems to think that Russia is our friend (hey, bailing you out of your last
bankruptcy will do that to people)... now _that's_ loony.

John Savard

Quadibloc wrote in
:

On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 12:07:18 PM UTC-6, Jibini
Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

Tyson's hate propaganda wasn't about Galileo, it was about
Giardano Bruno,

Who was burned at the stake in direct violation of the Eternal
Law of God, specifically, the section of that Law which was
again revealed to humanity in the First Amendment to the
Constitution of the United States of America, although the
principles embodied apply to all humans in all times and places:

Thou shalt make no laws that favor one religious faith over
another; and

Thou shalt not suppress the ability of the people to freely
debate political issues.

Ah, no. And again, you have agreed that it had nothing to do with
heliocentrism.

He was a violent asshole who went out of his way to **** people off
until they killed him for it.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Oh great, the intellectual cripple shows up and joins the party where historical characters do their bidding. Won't be long before he asks the usual question but that is what happens when another sci-fi addict shows up in this newsgroup.

Pointing fingers at the Church or individuals doesn't matter when observations are in front of those who can be bullied or who suffer the hapless. The system of predictions using the direct motion of the Sun through the Zodiac in tandem with the direct/retrograde motions of the planets can't account nor prove the Earth and the other planets make a circuit of the Sun.

A sun centered system is indirectly inferred by the faster Earth overtaking the slower moving planets but Not the faster moving Venus and Mercury -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html


The direct/retrogrades of Venus and Mercury from their smaller circumferences and faster motion is a direct observation of planetary motion around the Sun as their loops are actual and not illusory -

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...8b4d1aa26fabcc


The subculture here does no do common sense, the first time direct/retrogrades are partitioned since Copernicus and these people are busy manufacturing history with an astronomical foundation.

Quadibloc wrote in
:

On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 12:07:18 PM UTC-6, Jibini
Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

And Galileo's real problem

his problem was that he, too, was an asshole who
****ed off the wrong people.

No,

Yes. He went out of his way to publicly humiliate his critics, even
when they were right and he was wrong. And being a scientist, his
critics were also scientists, at a time when one could not be a
scientist without a wealthy, influential patron.

Were he alive today, he'd be one of the most accomplished trolls on
the internet, bar none.

Whatever delusions you may mastrubate to in your blind, irrational
gobbling down of anti-Catholic propaganda.

(No, I am not Catholic, nor even Christian. But I'm also not a
droolign idiot who believes whatever I'm spoon fed by people with a
an agenda and no morals. Hate on the Church all you want, but at
least *try* to do so for things they've actually done.)

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Quadibloc wrote in
:

On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 12:07:18 PM UTC-6, Jibini
Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

Which is, in fact, what it was at that point. It couldn't be
confirmed until Newton invented calculus.

This is an interesting point.

And a correct one. The ptolemaic tables produced more accurate
predictions of planetary movements than Galileo's equations. And
continued to do so until calculus was applied to the problem.

It is true that after Newton, the controversy about
heliocentricism versus geocentricism died.

Basically, as I understand it, it was because Newton came up
with this thing called "gravity", and once it was clear how that
explained what Kepler matched to observations, the fact that the
Sun was *bigger and heavier* than the Earth made it pretty
obvious what was revolving around what.

As usual, your understanding is stupidly wrong.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Quadibloc wrote in
:

On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 12:41:07 PM UTC-6, Jibini
Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

(And yes, he was a _violent_ extremist.)

It's true he had unorthodox religious views. The "violent" part
comes as news to me.

That is an indication of your stupidity, ignorance and gullibility.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Quadibloc wrote in
:

On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 8:44:01 AM UTC-6, RichA
wrote:
Towards the end, Sagan, formerly a productive astrophysicist
from Cornell and publicizer of astronomy became a bit of a
pariah, wandering around, screeching at anyone who would listen
about the impending doom of "nuclear winter." Seems like Tyson
might be going the same way, or, he could just be trying to
promote another book. "Publish or perish?"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/neil-de...ilitarization-
of-space-new-book-accessory-to-war/

Opposing the militarization of space isn't loony, even if it is
a political stance one might disagree with.

Opposing something that is inevitable is stupid.

On the other hand, taking Trump's "Space Force" seriously...
particularly as he seems to think that Russia is our friend
(hey, bailing you out of your last bankruptcy will do that to
people)... now _that's_ loony.

Your TDS is hallucinating again.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.