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#31
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"Allen Thomson" wrote in news:1128087232.985432.127590
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: Damon Hill wrote: Must be semisubmersible, to be able to load/unload something as large as that... That's right. They take on ballast until the main deck is several meters underwater, the load is floated over it, and the ballast is pumped out (carefully!). See http://www.dockwise.com/?sid=25&project=81 for a general idea of what is being contemplated for SBX and http://www.dockwise.com/?sid=25 for other impressive pictures of heavy lifting. Okay, I remember seeing this before, took the picture to job my memory. Looks awful top-heavy, but judging from the number of big jobs it's taken on it obviously works. I guess 'Flounder' or 'Halibut' wasn't the right name for it, but that's what popped into my head. --Damon |
#32
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Ed Kyle wrote:
This thing looks like it consisted of the first two stages of a Minuteman, which would have weighed in at more than 30 tonnes. They've been busy out there over the Pacific horizon... Yep. PDF page 18 of http://ax.losangeles.af.mil/axf/eaapgs/docs/lraltea.pdf sez, "The LRALT vehicle consists of a simulated reentry vehicle (SRV), a guidance and control unit (GCU), an SR19-AJ-1 rocket motor, an interstage assembly, another SR19-AJ-1 rocket motor, and an aft skirt assembly. The target vehicle is 36 feet (ft) [11 meters (m)] long with a maximum diameter of 5 ft (1.53 m), and weighs approximately 35,000 pounds (lbs) [15,876 kilograms (kg)]." It would seem that the missile defense effort might be creating some potentially useful space launch infrastructure. An interesting thought. Note that the GMD interceptors are orbit-capable; if the EKV misses the target on some intercept trajectories it will wind up in orbit. |
#33
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Oops. Make that "nope." I was reading lbs as kgs. Mea culpa.
The LRALT uses two MM II second stages, not one 1st and one 2nd stage. BTW, the document says in Figure 2-3 that the C-17 is a "Military cargo aircraft with capability to extract 42,000 lb." Allen Thomson wrote: Ed Kyle wrote: This thing looks like it consisted of the first two stages of a Minuteman, which would have weighed in at more than 30 tonnes. They've been busy out there over the Pacific horizon... Yep. PDF page 18 of http://ax.losangeles.af.mil/axf/eaapgs/docs/lraltea.pdf sez, "The LRALT vehicle consists of a simulated reentry vehicle (SRV), a guidance and control unit (GCU), an SR19-AJ-1 rocket motor, an interstage assembly, another SR19-AJ-1 rocket motor, and an aft skirt assembly. The target vehicle is 36 feet (ft) [11 meters (m)] long with a maximum diameter of 5 ft (1.53 m), and weighs approximately 35,000 pounds (lbs) [15,876 kilograms (kg)]." |
#34
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Allen Thomson wrote:
Oops. Make that "nope." I was reading lbs as kgs. Mea culpa. The LRALT uses two MM II second stages, not one 1st and one 2nd stage. BTW, the document says in Figure 2-3 that the C-17 is a "Military cargo aircraft with capability to extract 42,000 lb." Thanks for the links, but this isn't the thing I was pointing to. I was pointing to: "http://www.crc.com/SRALT.htm" This is the Short Range Air Launched Target (SRALT), which looks heavier than the Long Range ALT. It used (uses?) four parachutes, for example, and the text calls it a "ballistic missile class target". BTW, I guessed 16 tonnes for the LRALT. Your document find says 15.876 tonnes. I am feeling rather pleased with myself about my guessing skills right now, but I'm sure to get shot down soon enough. - Ed Kyle Allen Thomson wrote: Ed Kyle wrote: This thing looks like it consisted of the first two stages of a Minuteman, which would have weighed in at more than 30 tonnes. They've been busy out there over the Pacific horizon... Yep. PDF page 18 of http://ax.losangeles.af.mil/axf/eaapgs/docs/lraltea.pdf sez, "The LRALT vehicle consists of a simulated reentry vehicle (SRV), a guidance and control unit (GCU), an SR19-AJ-1 rocket motor, an interstage assembly, another SR19-AJ-1 rocket motor, and an aft skirt assembly. The target vehicle is 36 feet (ft) [11 meters (m)] long with a maximum diameter of 5 ft (1.53 m), and weighs approximately 35,000 pounds (lbs) [15,876 kilograms (kg)]." |
#35
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Ed Kyle wrote: Allen Thomson wrote: Oops. Make that "nope." I was reading lbs as kgs. Mea culpa. The LRALT uses two MM II second stages, not one 1st and one 2nd stage. BTW, the document says in Figure 2-3 that the C-17 is a "Military cargo aircraft with capability to extract 42,000 lb." Thanks for the links, but this isn't the thing I was pointing to. I was pointing to: "http://www.crc.com/SRALT.htm" This is the Short Range Air Launched Target (SRALT), which looks heavier than the Long Range ALT. It used (uses?) four parachutes, for example, and the text calls it a "ballistic missile class target". BTW, I guessed 16 tonnes for the LRALT. Your document find says 15.876 tonnes. I am feeling rather pleased with myself about my guessing skills right now, but I'm sure to get shot down soon enough. - Ed Kyle And sure enough, it does look like I was wrong, horribly wrong, about SRALT. It does use an SR-19 (Minuteman II second stage) motor that weighs in at about 7 tonnes. "http://sanitarium.net/stuff/pics/sralt.jpg" "http://space.skyrocket.de/index_frame.htm?http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_lau/sr19.htm" "http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/sralt.html" "http://sanitarium.net/stuff/pics/sralt.jpg" - Ed Kyle |
#36
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Allen Thomson wrote: I initially thought the missile was a Castor-based Orbital target vehicle, but apparently it was a L-3 Coleman Aerospace Long Range Air Launch Target. I confess I'd never heard of it befo http://www.crc.com/LRALT.htm http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050929/sfth071.html?.v=28 Yesh! That looks like some sort of SLBM. It's two surplus Minutman II second stages mounted in tandem: http://www.skyrocket.de/space/index_.../sr19_sr19.htm Pat |
#37
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Ed Kyle wrote: It would seem that the missile defense effort might be creating some potentially useful space launch infrastructure. It also might be creating something along the line of an air-launched IRBM, ala Skybolt. That target vehicle launcher is big enough that you could put a real warhead on it with ease. It could also be used for covert quick reaction small satellite launches. Pat |
#38
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Ed Kyle wrote: It looks like they already did this almost, with what looks to be the first two stages of a Minuteman that would have weighed more than 30 tonnes. "http://www.crc.com/SRALT.htm" There appear to be two different versions- one, the second and third stages of a Minuteman II (the one you referenced above), and a heavier version comprising two second stages of a Minuteman II: http://www.crc.com/imagesair/Lraltw_title.jpg There are also a ground launched variants, some with added strap-on solids: http://www.skyrocket.de/space/index_.../sr19_sr19.htm http://www.crc.com/imagesground/groundFLAT4.gif Pat |
#39
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Pat Flannery wrote: Ed Kyle wrote: It would seem that the missile defense effort might be creating some potentially useful space launch infrastructure. It also might be creating something along the line of an air-launched IRBM, ala Skybolt. That target vehicle launcher is big enough that you could put a real warhead on it with ease. It could also be used for covert quick reaction small satellite launches. How would such machines be used? Hmmm. China launches a massive surprise missile strike that destroys all of the U.S. ICBMs in their silos. (They were right about missile defense being easy to spoof). Simultaneously, all of the U.S. missile boats are sunk by the Chinese attack submarines that have been trailing them for weeks. The few U.S. bomber bases are easy pickings too. The U.S. is a radioactive ruin, its population dead or dying. The China Century is about to begin. But Peking doesn't notice the half-dozen C-17s taking off from secret "grass field" "Doomsday" bases on several continents. One from Iraq. One from Afghanistan. One from Japan. One from Alaska, or what's left of Alaska. One from Ukraine. One from an uncharted Pacific island, etc. These are one-way flights, but the aircraft will be far beyond radar range when they open their rear cargo doors ... - Ed Kyle |
#40
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Ed Kyle wrote: s. How would such machines be used? Hmmm. China launches a massive surprise missile strike that destroys all of the U.S. ICBMs in their silos. (They were right about missile defense being easy to spoof). Simultaneously, all of the U.S. missile boats are sunk by the Chinese attack submarines that have been trailing them for weeks. The few U.S. bomber bases are easy pickings too. The U.S. is a radioactive ruin, its population dead or dying. The China Century is about to begin. But Peking doesn't notice the half-dozen C-17s taking off from secret "grass field" "Doomsday" bases on several continents. One from Iraq. One from Afghanistan. One from Japan. One from Alaska, or what's left of Alaska. One from Ukraine. One from an uncharted Pacific island, etc. These are one-way flights, but the aircraft will be far beyond radar range when they open their rear cargo doors ... They looked into this idea under Reagan, you know- they did the test drop of the Minuteman out of the C-5. As for tactics? Well, you could do a duzzy of a decapitating preemptive strike with them, as you could attack from directions that the enemy wouldn't be expecting, and the flight time can be very short. (I think that was one of the things that killed Skybolt- it looked like a first strike weapon, due to its short flight time.) In the case of Skybolt, you could tell it was being carried as it has hung under the wings; but in this case the C-17 carrying a missile and one carrying a M-1 Abrams would look alike externally, which means they could be deployed pretty much anywhere surreptitiously. You could even make it look like someone else did the attack by having its direction of approach be from an enemy state. What it would be great for is a quick-response ASAT or reconsat launcher, as the C-17 can fly to the desired bearing and position over the ocean, and have the spent stages fall into the sea. You do a direct-ascent ASAT attack with a soft-kill capability and you can nail a enemy satellite while it's outside their tracking coverage and get plausible deniability in regards to its destruction. Here's an earlier take on the air-launch ASAT/recon concept: http://www.up-ship.com/apr/extras/townhall.htm Pat |
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