Addressing the formation of the solar system

On Apr 15, 3:43*pm, BradGuth wrote:
On Apr 6, 10:20*pm, BURT wrote:

How do accretion discs form in a flat plane around a star?

How does the gravitational order bring matter together in the solar
plane. How then does this matter proceed to become planets?

There were trillions of lumps of matter. How did they come together
for the order of the solar system we now see?

Nobody can do it. And never will.

Mitch Raemsch

A solar system disk to start with needs two or more black holes
merging and/or combining within a sufficient cosmic cloud of mostly
hydrogen and perhaps some helium.

Good thing this rotating creation process doesn't happen very often,
however the 12+ massive Sirius star/solar system emerged right next
door if not essentially right on top of us, and not much further back
than 300 million years ago.

You can not address the formation of our solar system without also
addressing the complex formation of our galaxy and of those nearby
other stars that dominate.

As of some odd 250~350 million years ago, Eden/Earth and our entire
solar system became surrounded and perhaps otherwise cosmic saturated
within the exact same molecular cloud that gave birth to the massive
and extremely vibrant Sirius star/solar system. Yet for some odd anti-
disclosure reason this doesn’t seem to bother anyone of any
astrophysics and astronomy observationology expertise, nor the fact
that we can’t manage to rediscover any remainder or other portions of
this terrific molecular cloud that should still be worth 99.99% of
whatever it once had to offer.

Is it just silly old me, or do we think there’s something a little
more than cosmology fishy or hocus-pocus weird going on?

What would happen to our terrestrial environment if our solar system
once again became located next to or especially if surrounded by any
significant portion of the same 120,000 some odd solar masses worth of
such a cosmic molecular cloud, like that which created the 12 solar
mass of the original Sirius star/solar system?

We’re told by the published experts in cosmology and astrophysics that
a 12,000 solar mass cloud would have been the minimum, and that
120,000 solar masses is still a conservative molecular cloud estimate
for having given birth to a 12 solar mass star system, such as
supposedly having recently created the original Sirius star/solar
system, whereas more than likely it could have been a more substantial
molecular cloud of 240,000~1,200,000 solar masses unless some kind of
black holes or other substantial kind of cosmic merger took place.

Lo and behold, it seems the merger of galactic proportions isn’t as
uncommon as you might care to think.

The Hipparcos Space Astrometry Mission: (mainstream media ignored)
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/are...cfm?fareaid=20
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/milkyway-04m.html

Local galactic motion simulation:
"The Geneva-Copenhagen survey of the Solar neighbourhood", by B.
Nordström et al.
http://www.aanda.org/content/view/71/42/lang,en

According to several physics and astronomy kinds of science, our
Milky Way is made up of at least two galactic units, with more on
their blue-shift way towards encountering us.

Our Milky Way Galaxy and its Companions (we are not alone)
http://www.public.asu.edu/~rjansen/l...ocalgroup.html

Don’t forget to appreciate those Hubble, KECK and multiple other
archives of colliding galaxies, soon to be ESA enhanced via a trio of
impressive orbital observatories, not to mention whatever the renewed
and improved Hubble has to offer.

~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth BG / “Guth Usenet”

On Jun 7, 6:05*pm, BradGuth wrote:

As of some odd 250~350 million years ago, Eden/Earth and our entire
solar system became surrounded and perhaps otherwise cosmic saturated
within the exact same molecular cloud that gave birth to the massive
and extremely vibrant Sirius star/solar system. *Yet for some odd anti-
disclosure reason this doesn’t seem to bother anyone of any
astrophysics and astronomy observationology expertise...

***********

Once again, you sure can go on and on about things you know
absolutely
nothing about. We already went over all of this back in early April.

Sirius and its single companion are approaching earth at about 9 km/
sec, and in 200K years they will be making their closest approach to
earth. Doing the simple math, when that system formed it was about
100
light years away from our solar system. It did NOT form anywhere near
the earth. Ergo, the cloud it formed from was not anywhere near the
earth then, either.

You can Google up this same information for yourself, there is no need
to take my word for it...

\Paul A

On Jun 7, 7:56*pm, wrote:
On Jun 7, 6:05*pm, BradGuth wrote:

As of some odd 250~350 million years ago, Eden/Earth and our entire
solar system became surrounded and perhaps otherwise cosmic saturated
within the exact same molecular cloud that gave birth to the massive
and extremely vibrant Sirius star/solar system. *Yet for some odd anti-
disclosure reason this doesn’t seem to bother anyone of any
astrophysics and astronomy observationology expertise...

***********

Once again, you sure can go on and on about things you know
absolutely
nothing about. We already went over all of this back in early April.

Sirius and its single companion are approaching earth at about 9 km/
sec, and in 200K years they will be making their closest approach to
earth. Doing the simple math, when that system formed it was about
100 light years away from our solar system. It did NOT form anywhere
near the earth. Ergo, the cloud it formed from was not anywhere near
the earth then, either.

You can Google up this same information for yourself, there is no need
to take my word for it...

\Paul A

So once again, according to your purely subjective mindset is where
nothing is in orbit around anything, or much less encounters anything,
and all that's Sirius is just a weird kind of rogue cosmic thing that
just happened somewhere far, far away, and for no apparent reason came
nearly to a stop at its current location as we pass safely in the
night (so to speak).

That must be why its horrific molecular cloud is also no where in
sight. How interesting and how otherwise absolutely pathetic at the
same time, that Sirius would migrate in one direction and its
molecular cloud of birth took off at a much higher velocity in the
opposite direction.

Are you for real?

Do you per chance have the 500 million year trek of that molecular
cloud and the subsequent stellar birth and proper motion of Sirius
plotted for us? Does anyone?

~ BG

On Jun 7, 11:31*pm, BradGuth wrote:
On Jun 7, 7:56*pm, wrote:





On Jun 7, 6:05*pm, BradGuth wrote:

As of some odd 250~350 million years ago, Eden/Earth and our entire
solar system became surrounded and perhaps otherwise cosmic saturated
within the exact same molecular cloud that gave birth to the massive
and extremely vibrant Sirius star/solar system. *Yet for some odd anti-
disclosure reason this doesn’t seem to bother anyone of any
astrophysics and astronomy observationology expertise...

***********

Once again, you sure can go on and on about things you know
absolutely
nothing about. We already went over all of this back in early April.

Sirius and its single companion are approaching earth at about 9 km/
sec, and in 200K years they will be making their closest approach to
earth. Doing the simple math, when that system formed it was about
100 light years away from our solar system. It did NOT form anywhere
near the earth. Ergo, the cloud it formed from was not anywhere near
the earth then, either.

You can Google up this same information for yourself, there is no need
to take my word for it...

\Paul A

So once again, according to your purely subjective mindset is where
nothing is in orbit around anything, or much less encounters anything,
and all that's Sirius is just a weird kind of rogue cosmic thing that
just happened somewhere far, far away, and for no apparent reason came
nearly to a stop at its current location as we pass safely in the
night (so to speak).

That must be why its horrific molecular cloud is also no where in
sight. *How interesting and how otherwise absolutely pathetic at the
same time, that Sirius would migrate in one direction and its
molecular cloud of birth took off at a much higher velocity in the
opposite direction.

Are you for real?

Do you per chance have the 500 million year trek of that molecular
cloud and the subsequent stellar birth and proper motion of Sirius
plotted for us? *Does anyone?

*~ BG

You can sure jump to conclusions in a hurry, can't you?

I don't remember stating that nothing was in orbit around anything,
and I'm not resorting to speculation, I believe you have the corner on
that market.

There is nothing rogue about the Sirius system, it is a usual and
customary star system, just like billions of others. The Sirius system
has NOT come to nearly a stop in its current location, it is still
approaching us at about 9km/sec and will not be at its closest
approach for another 200K years, and then it will be moving away from
us. What is so hard to understand about this? Virtually everything out
there is moving either towards us or away from us at some speed.

I know nothing of the specific cloud from which Sirius formed, but I
do know that most stars form in clusters, having condensed from a dust
cloud, and that when the young stars first start their nuclear fusion,
their radiation pressure fairly quickly dissipates the reminder of the
cloud. Every time you view an older open cluster you can be pretty
sure that at some time in the past it had a nebula around it which has
now been pushed out into interstellar space.

Of course, you can also find open clusters that are still surrounded
by most of the cloud from which they formed, M-42 in Orion is a
perfect example, as is M-8 in Sagittarius, and many, many others. In
these you can clearly see stars at all levels of formation, from
proplyds to full-blown giants. Do some reading here;

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap961017.html

Understand that at some time way in the future there will be no Orion
Nebula, M-42 will only refer to a star cluster, and that at another
time way, way in the future that cluster will have evaporated, its
stars having wandered away from each other, leaving no trace of its
existence.

\Paul A

On Jun 8, 10:07*am, wrote:
On Jun 7, 11:31*pm, BradGuth wrote:



On Jun 7, 7:56*pm, wrote:

On Jun 7, 6:05*pm, BradGuth wrote:

As of some odd 250~350 million years ago, Eden/Earth and our entire
solar system became surrounded and perhaps otherwise cosmic saturated
within the exact same molecular cloud that gave birth to the massive
and extremely vibrant Sirius star/solar system. *Yet for some odd anti-
disclosure reason this doesn’t seem to bother anyone of any
astrophysics and astronomy observationology expertise...

***********

Once again, you sure can go on and on about things you know
absolutely
nothing about. We already went over all of this back in early April.

Sirius and its single companion are approaching earth at about 9 km/
sec, and in 200K years they will be making their closest approach to
earth. Doing the simple math, when that system formed it was about
100 light years away from our solar system. It did NOT form anywhere
near the earth. Ergo, the cloud it formed from was not anywhere near
the earth then, either.

You can Google up this same information for yourself, there is no need
to take my word for it...

\Paul A

So once again, according to your purely subjective mindset is where
nothing is in orbit around anything, or much less encounters anything,
and all that's Sirius is just a weird kind of rogue cosmic thing that
just happened somewhere far, far away, and for no apparent reason came
nearly to a stop at its current location as we pass safely in the
night (so to speak).

That must be why its horrific molecular cloud is also no where in
sight. *How interesting and how otherwise absolutely pathetic at the
same time, that Sirius would migrate in one direction and its
molecular cloud of birth took off at a much higher velocity in the
opposite direction.

Are you for real?

Do you per chance have the 500 million year trek of that molecular
cloud and the subsequent stellar birth and proper motion of Sirius
plotted for us? *Does anyone?

*~ BG

You can sure jump to conclusions in a hurry, can't you?

Conclusion Guth is always ready with a loose cannon or two.


I don't remember stating that nothing was in orbit around anything,
and I'm not resorting to speculation, I believe you have the corner on
that market.

My speculation as to the whereabouts of the original Sirius star/solar
system, and of its impressive molecular cloud of charged hydrogen,
helium and a variety of other elements is at least honestly suggesting
that folks claiming to know so much as a matter of fact, really do
not.


There is nothing rogue about the Sirius system, it is a usual and
customary star system, just like billions of others. The Sirius system
has NOT come to nearly a stop in its current location, it is still
approaching us at about 9km/sec and will not be at its closest
approach for another 200K years, and then it will be moving away from
us. What is so hard to understand about this? Virtually everything out
there is moving either towards us or away from us at some speed.

How close did we get the previous time, and of each one before that?


I know nothing of the specific cloud from which Sirius formed, but I
do know that most stars form in clusters, having condensed from a dust
cloud, and that when the young stars first start their nuclear fusion,
their radiation pressure fairly quickly dissipates the reminder of the
cloud. Every time you view an older open cluster you can be pretty
sure that at some time in the past it had a nebula around it which has
now been pushed out into interstellar space.

I agree that the birth of a 12+ solar mass star/solar system pushed
the vast bulk of its dust/molecular cloud away, and that unavoidably
we were caught within that process because of being so nearby. Even
within 100 light years is nearby for such a cloud with perhaps 500
light year radius to start with.

99.99% of the Sirius molecular mass is still out there, and most
likely we've only recently (as of 250~350 million years) passed
through it, and/or it's still surrounding us and Sirius.


Of course, you can also find open clusters that are still surrounded
by most of the cloud from which they formed, M-42 in Orion is a
perfect example, as is M-8 in Sagittarius, and many, many others. In
these you can clearly see stars at all levels of formation, from
proplyds to full-blown giants. Do some reading here;

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap961017.html

Thanks, I'll do just that.

btw, it looks like there's one black hole emerging in that image
"ap961017.html"


Understand that at some time way in the future there will be no Orion
Nebula, M-42 will only refer to a star cluster, and that at another
time way, way in the future that cluster will have evaporated, its
stars having wandered away from each other, leaving no trace of its
existence.

\Paul A

So, you're saying that gravity is what primarily creates stars and
gravity is also what keeps stars (regardless of however near one
another) apart?

Somewhat related: Dark Matter Halo Simulation (looks damn big)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter_halo

What was the initial Sirius ABC combined solar wind maximum density
and velocity (say for the first thousand or million years when it was
new and really going to town, so to speak)?

How soon after the fairly recent stellar birth of Sirius B do whatever
planets and moons form?

Whatever happened to those Sirius planets and their moons? (only
Sirius C seems to be sticking around, and it's somewhat stealth/
invisible)

~ BG

On Jun 8, 11:33*am, BradGuth wrote:

So, you're saying that gravity is what primarily creates stars and
gravity is also what keeps stars (regardless of however near one
another) apart?

I didn't say that at all. True, gravity is responsible for star
formation. It is actually the lack of gravity that accounts for the
evaporation of a cluster. From Wiki;

"All stars form in clusters, but most clusters break up less than 50
million years after star formation concludes. The astronomical term
for this process is "evaporation." Only extremely massive clusters,
orbiting far from the Galactic center, can avoid evaporation over
extended timescales

Somewhat related: *Dark Matter Halo Simulation (looks damn big)
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter_halo

What does the theory of Dark Matter have to do with star clusters in
general and Sirius in particular?

What was the initial Sirius ABC combined solar wind maximum density
and velocity (say for the first thousand or million years when it was
new and really going to town, so to speak)?

There is no Sirius C and there never has been. See the bottom of this
page;

http://www.solstation.com/stars/sirius2.htm

How soon after the fairly recent stellar birth of Sirius B do whatever
planets and moons form?

What do you mean by the 'fairly recent birth of Sirius B'? You need to
perform due diligence before saying things like this. Sirius A and B
were most assuredly born at the same time from the same cloud. Read
the previous link from the top. Sirius A is a 2-3 solar mass star, and
Sirius B WAS a 5 solar-mass star, before evolving to its present white
dwarf stage.

I have no idea about any planet formation around either one of these
guys. If you do, I would like to see the reference.

\Paul A

On Jun 8, 2:52*pm, wrote:
On Jun 8, 11:33*am, BradGuth wrote:

So, you're saying that gravity is what primarily creates stars and

gravity is also what keeps stars (regardless of however near one
another) apart?

I didn't say that at all. True, gravity is responsible for star
formation. It is actually the lack of gravity that accounts for the
evaporation of a cluster. From Wiki;

"All stars form in clusters, but most clusters break up less than 50
million years after star formation concludes. The astronomical term
for this process is "evaporation." Only extremely massive clusters,
orbiting far from the Galactic center, can avoid evaporation over
extended timescales

Somewhat related: *Dark Matter Halo Simulation (looks damn big)
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter_halo

What does the theory of Dark Matter have to do with star clusters in
general and Sirius in particular?



What was the initial Sirius ABC combined solar wind maximum density
and velocity (say for the first thousand or million years when it was
new and really going to town, so to speak)?

There is no Sirius C and there never has been. See the bottom of this
page;

http://www.solstation.com/stars/sirius2.htm

How soon after the fairly recent stellar birth of Sirius B do whatever
planets and moons form?

What do you mean by the 'fairly recent birth of Sirius B'? You need to
perform due diligence before saying things like this. Sirius A and B
were most assuredly born at the same time from the same cloud. Read
the previous link from the top. Sirius A is a 2-3 solar mass star, and
Sirius B WAS a 5 solar-mass star, before evolving to its present white
dwarf stage.

I have no idea about any planet formation around either one of these
guys. If you do, I would like to see the reference.

\Paul A

The wobble of a .05.06 solar mass of something is there to behold,
but you certainly don't have to look if you don't want to.

Your selective obfuscation and word game is otherwise noted, and fully
expected, as is your cling to the subjective science that suits your
closed mindset.

Too bad your parrot knowledge is as good as it's ever going to get.

~ BG

On Jun 8, 4:00*pm, BradGuth wrote:


The wobble of a .05.06 solar mass of something is there to behold,
but you certainly don't have to look if you don't want to.

.... and your source for this is what? I've already given you one
source, there are many more. And, there are many really wacky sights
out there, all related to the Dogon tribe. None of them are
particularly scientific. But what if there was a tiny brown dwarf in
this system. What would it matter?

Your selective obfuscation and word game is otherwise noted, and fully
expected, as is your cling to the subjective science that suits your
closed mindset.

Word game? I believe you have the corner on the word game market.

Subjective science? I've forgotten more astronomy than you will ever
know.

Closed mindset? I believe in an open mind, but not so open that your
brains fall out...

Too bad your parrot knowledge is as good as it's ever going to get.

You clearly have no idea about even the simplest workings of the
universe, do you... if you are not here to learn, then why are you
here at all? From where I am sitting you are only a breather, just
using up oxygen...

\PA