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NASA and shutdowns
U.S. Government Shutdown Won’t Impact ISS Operations
Jan 18, 2018 Mark Carreau | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report http://aviationweek.com/awinspace/us...iss-operations On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:43:42 -0500, JF Mezei wrote: Out of curiosity, how much of NASA is affected in the case of a government shutdown? Lets assume government shuts friday night. Lets assume NASA is to launch some space proble on Sunday, a once in a lifetime oppportunity due to alignment of planets/stars. Would NASA be a "business as usual" for some time like Amtrak and Post Office because they are already funded and don't need day-to-day funding ? Or would they have to justify that X staff are essential for this launch, and all others would be furloughed? Similarly, I assume mission control for ISS would be "essential". What about experiment focused "mission" controls? Would they too be considered essential and funded or would all experiments be put on hold on ISS? |
#2
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NASA and shutdowns
On 1/20/2018 12:53 AM, JF Mezei wrote:
On 2018-01-19 20:27, me wrote: U.S. Government Shutdown Won’t Impact ISS Operations Jan 18, 2018 Mark Carreau | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report http://aviationweek.com/awinspace/us...iss-operations Won't let me read it. Is it deemed to be an "essential" service that continues despite shutdown, or an already funded service that can continue until apporproaations run out? Do ISS operation continue normally, or are they curtailed to some extent? (experiements are ofren managed by Marshall with lots of staff on ground). If I were to ale Fred McCall to the letter, shoudln'r they be cutting power, gas, heating to all federal buildings sinc there is no funding to pay for it? JF Mezi, A quick search of DuckDuckGo (enough of Google already) using this phrase: "iss and government shutdown" let to this website: https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/19/1...s-falcon-heavy Which in turn led to this PDF: https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/f...015-update.pdf Commentary: (no charge :-) I'm not trying to be overly critical here, or antagonistic. But searches likes these are rudimentary these days and the information you seek is ready available from on-line search engines. You seem to be stuck in the 1980's in the days before the Web when queries like these were necessary to newsgroups such as this in order just to FIND the information. Often times that required a follow up via either ftp downloading of a text document or an email or telephone call to some cloistered government or academic librarian and even US Mail! Thankfully, that is no longer the case. I think it would be of more interest to me and perhaps other readers of the newsgroup that you first seek out, using search engines, the basic info you seek and then if you have specific questions using the above source material (which IMO you should include as reference links) then maybe you would get a better result based on the responses you'd get from people here who have experience in such matters. It would lead to better discussions and be of interest to the "experts" more often than not. Also I suggest you subscribe to the mailing list Arocket and lurk there for awhile to get a feel for the back and forth I am describing. http://www.arocketry.net/forum.html Dave |
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NASA and shutdowns
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2018-01-19 20:27, me wrote: U.S. Government Shutdown Won’t Impact ISS Operations Jan 18, 2018 Mark Carreau | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report http://aviationweek.com/awinspace/us...iss-operations Won't let me read it. Is it deemed to be an "essential" service that continues despite shutdown, or an already funded service that can continue until apporproaations run out? Nothing counts as "already funded". The government's authority to disburse money expires. Do ISS operation continue normally, or are they curtailed to some extent? (experiements are ofren managed by Marshall with lots of staff on ground). Continue normally. Just what would 'curtailing' them save? If I were to ale Fred McCall to the letter, shoudln'r they be cutting power, gas, heating to all federal buildings sinc there is no funding to pay for it? They charge it. Vendors (rightly) assume that this will eventually get sorted out and they'll get paid. -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
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NASA and shutdowns
On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 08:25:42 -0500, David Spain
wrote: JF Mezi, A quick search of DuckDuckGo (enough of Google already) using this phrase: "iss and government shutdown" let to this website: Hell just look to the links found for you at spacetoday.net : http://spacetoday.net/ |
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NASA and shutdowns
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2018-01-20 08:25, David Spain wrote: A quick search of DuckDuckGo (enough of Google already) using this phrase: "iss and government shutdown" let to this website: https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/19/1...s-falcon-heavy Gives the standard text. Does not address the fact that the White House refused to provide details on exactly ahwt will and won't shutdown as per Friday afternoon's press briefiengs, except reveal that the shutdown would have far less impact than in the past because they found different ways to interpret the rules. The test firing of Falcon Heavy has been cancelled because of the furlough of government safety personnel to support commercial test flights. The budget guy also refused to state whether once settled, there would be retroactive pay. (despite this being the expected behaviour from previous shutdowns). That's because whether that happens or not is up to CONGRESS. If the bill they eventually pass calls for retroactive pay, then people get retroactive pay. If it doesn't then they don't. Nobody knows the answer to that until a deal passes. So the "standard" answers may not be applicable. Yes, of course, ISS "essential" ops continue. But my question pertained more on how much leaway NASA has to consider something "essential". Yes, yes, and we could all die of magic unicorn farts on Tuesday. Pretty unlikely, though. The article provides some colour in terms of the spacewalk going ahead. Does not mention ground based staff assigned to experiments. Oh, and note the byline of that article "THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF UNKNOWNS" Look, if you want minute details, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. I'm not trying to be overly critical here, or antagonistic. But searches likes these are rudimentary these days and the information you seek is So, even when the articles you point has "THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF UNKNOWNS", you feel it is inappropriate to ask questions on exactly how this shutdown will happen ? So, even when there are unknowns you think asking questions is useful? There's a reason they're called 'unknowns' and the fact that there are some doesn't mean everything is. I am more curious to see what "running out of funds" really means in terms of the law (and how much leaway each department has). It's real simple. If funds are part of the annual budget, they stop. I can understand a "no more contracts can be signed". But am not clear what happens to existing contracts and international commitments. They don't get paid until after a deal passes to fund things. I can understand how a government worker at IRS who gets paycheck from "US Government" is no longer funded, but not so clear about independent organsiations such as NASA that get yearly budget, have their own payroll, bank accounts etc. I would have expected that as long as they remain within their already allocated budget envelope, they could continue to operate normally. NASA isn't 'independent', as you note yourself. It's a government organization funded by annual budgets. No annual budget authority and payments stop. They don't have an "already allocated budget envelope". The failure to pass any sort of budget deal means nothing is "already allocated". And also curious on how NASA is different from say the US Post Office and Amtrak , both of whom continue to operate normally under a shutdown. (and whether a commercial operation such as launching Falcon Heavy would be allowed since it generates revenues for NASA). The US Post Office and AMTRAC are actually independent organizations that aren't funded out of the annual budget. NASA is funded out of the annual budget process and is NOT an 'independent organization'. There's your difference. And if the shutdown was real, woudln't utilities cut power/gas to government buildings if, by law, they couldn't be paid for services provided after the shutdown? You've never heard of credit cards? -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
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NASA and shutdowns
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2018-01-20 10:38, Fred J. McCall wrote: Nothing counts as "already funded". The government's authority to disburse money expires. Continue normally. Just what would 'curtailing' them save? based on your first statement, NASA can't pay its electric bills anymore, can't pay ANY staff. And strictly speaking, "essential" would be comms and life support on ISS, nothing else. Yet, an article states that NASA will go ahead with spacewalks, and pay for support on the ground, as well as pay folks like MDA that provide Canadarm support. Cite for your "continue to pay" claims? You seem confused. Employees identified as 'essential' DO NOT GET PAID DURING THE SHUTDOWN. Seems to me that disbursements continue. (or commitments to pay once the political circus moves onto another issue) It's the latter. Have this tattooed on your eyeballs. AGENCIES FUNDED THROUGH THE ANNUAL BUDGET PROCESS ***CANNOT*** DISBURSE FUNDS WITHOUT AN APPROVED BUDGET. -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
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NASA and shutdowns
JF Mezei wrote:
From White House press briefing just released: https://youtu.be/O8RraAbyrCI The EPA is to remain open, using "unobligated balance" carry over funds. Later, mentioned unobligated funds and those already at the agency. NAFTA negotiations (due to start on Monday) will go on, using transfer of funds and financig flexibility, In other words, they're digging change out of the couch cushions. NASA not mentioned. But it appears that much flexibility exists to continue to operate normally. It was mentioned that government workers have been sent "go to work, go to work for 4 hours to "shutdown" operation, or don't show up" memos. (but not mentioned if separate agencies got this). What they don't mention is that THOSE GOVERNMENT WORKERS ***DO NOT GET PAID*** until it's all over. -- "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson |
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NASA and shutdowns
JF Mezei wrote:
It appears I was unaware of a major aspect not discussed: It appears that you are not aware (and are resistant to becoming aware) of most things. the USA is existing without a budget right now. Uh, that is what is meant by 'government shutdown'. It's been explained to you in excruciating detail. In normal democracies a government falls (and new election called) if it is unable to pass a budget on time, so most don't think of the possibility of the USA existing without a budget. Then apparently most aren't aware of the difference between a parliamentary system and a republican system. BTW, during the shutdown, NASA Tweeted that it would be unable to tweet during the shutdown :-) Probably someone doing that on their way out the door. -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
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