Before the Big Bang?

"George Dishman" wrote in message
...

"Phil" wrote in message
ink.net...

With respect to viable
options of thinking, we must subjectively choose between them.

No, it isn't choice . . .

Sure it is. Here is an analogy.

Given: My wife, Steph, has a frustrated look on her face.

George's explanation: Phil didn't take out the trash.

Phil's explanation: I'm spending too much time at sci.physics.relativity.

Steph's explanation: I just don't get the tax law. Who wrote this stuff.


Now:

Given: Redshift indicates that galaxies are separating at an accelerated
pace.

George's explanation: Must be an accelerated expansion powered by dark
energy.

Phil's explanation: Who knows, maybe George is correct but maybe they are
acellerating in a gravity field.

Steph's explanation: Angels are blowing them around for fun.

Its just impossible to not be presented with choices and we inevitably
choose among them. That's why science is, in some measure, subjective.

Phil

"Ahmed Ouahi, Architect" wrote in message
...

There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy.
That used to be a huge number.

But it's only a hundred billion.
It's less than the national deficit!

We used to call them astronomical numbers.
Now we should call them economical numbers.

-- Richard Feynman

--
Ahmed Ouahi, Architect
Best Regards!

Cool, Ahmed. As used to be the saying, real cool. I enjoy your often very
fitting quotes to the max.

I've now long called the Big Bang the constant of the Big Bang Horizon, or
the collapsed horizon of an infinite Universe out from any point such as the
Earth or you or me, or even Luke Skywalker in a galaxy far, far away...or
even an atom of hydrogen anywhere. Seen another way, the collapsed horizon
of relativity being of a duality with the Planck Horizon. The Horizon that
is here, there, everywhere, and nowhere at all. Therefore a surface as well,
1-dimensional by 1-dimensional by 0-dimensional, or 1 square dimensional
surface (Unity = 1).

How many 0-dimensional points would there be to such a [Planck / Big Bang]
flat Universe surface / horizon? An infinitesimal indistinguishable from
zero...depth of surface? But I'm leading you along and I shouldn't be. A
surface infinite in its square or breadth, and just as infinite in its depth
of surface for being infinitesimal in depth -- regardless of infinitesimal
being [relatively] indistinguishable from zero.

Others laughed. They've obviously never heard, or have chosen to forget,
or never understood in the first place, that history always repeats itself
in larger, smoother, aspect, even if not in smaller, courser, detail. You
can't get much more historically bigger in picture vis-a-vis life than the
simplest of all, therefore the most complex of all, flat surface
[membranous] "cellular" structure and/or infrastructure -- "regardless of
infinitesimal being [relativity] indistinguishable from zero." "How many
0-dimensional points would there be to such a...flat...surface?"

"Unity = 1" is taken to be the ultimate of order. Ultra-order. It is
actually the ultimate of disorder. Ultra-disorder. The [Planck / Big Bang]
surface / horizon is the ultimate of heat, the ultra of hot, therefore the
ultimate in disorder, the ultimate in chaos -- or quantum chaos. Even
ancient Biblical references back that up. The fabled one tree (Unity = 1) at
the center of the Garden of Eden being pure poison, pure chaos, as deadly as
deadly can get. The fabled 'Babel' of All Mankind, where all mankind gathers
into a unity of oneness (Unity = 1), being pure complication, pure
confusion, pure confused state, pure chaos, tyranny, anarchy, as deadly as
deadly can get (as volatile as volatile can get). Even those most practical
of all the ancient thinkers, the ancient Greeks, entitled the unity (Unity),
the oneness ('1'), of Man or Life, the Harmony of Man or Life (the Paradise
of Man or Life), Utopia. 'U-topos', meaning no-place or nowhere...
'Nowhereland' (the modern being, "Dystopia").

Projection from Man and all Life on Earth, as to resource usage, into the
solar system, it has been estimated that the solar system, out to the Kuiper
and Oort Clouds, could probably comfortably support up to 80 quadrillion
humans atop an Earth corresponding pyramid of life throughout the solar
system, providing of course that expansion and growth into the solar system
is by way of a mini-galactic modeling. An Ark or island-worldlet modeling in
O'Neill or Stanford Torus type Space Colonies, plus the symbiotic space
complex, the space infrastructure, supporting them and being supported by
them -- the local and wide area networks and networking that would tie it
all together.

"EIGHTY-QUADRILLION HUMANS!!! JUST THE APEX OF A MIND NUMBING, MIND
BOGGLING, PYRAMID OF LIFE!!!" How many just around here would faint in
horror of such numbers existing much less poised on the brink of the next
frontier up, such bulk of humanity existing much less poised on the brink,
such bulk of life, such conversion of solar systemic mass to life energy, to
energy, to writhing energies, to "cellular structure," to "cellular
infrastructure." Let them faint in their horror. "You can't get much more
historically bigger in picture vis-a-vis life than the simplest of all,
therefore the most complex of all, flat surface [membranous] 'cellular'
structure and/or infrastructure -- 'regardless of infinitesimal being
[relatively] indistinguishable from zero." "How many 0-dimensional points
would there be to such a...flat...surface?"

"How many 0-dimensional points would there be to such a [Planck / Big
Bang] flat Universe surface / horizon? An infinitesimal indistinguishable
from zero...depth of surface? A surface infinite in its square or breadth,
and just as infinite in its depth of surface for being infinitesimal in
depth -- regardless of infinitesimal being [relatively] indistinguishable
from zero."

GLB

"Ahmed Ouahi, Architect" wrote in message
...

There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy.
That used to be a huge number.

But it's only a hundred billion.
It's less than the national deficit!

We used to call them astronomical numbers.
Now we should call them economical numbers.

-- Richard Feynman

--
Ahmed Ouahi, Architect
Best Regards!

Given my other responses as buildup, I've grown too impatient in buildup,
so I will deliver the final scene, and the punchline, here and now vis-a-vis
life.

You've undoubtedly heard the saying that he or she is one in a thousand or
one in a million. Or even one in a billion or trillion, or quadrillion. But
for there to be that one in a thousand, that one in a million or billion, or
that one in a trillion or quadrillion, almost iron-clad guaranteed, there
must be first and foremost in existence the thousand, the billion, the
trillion, the quadrillion, or by nature, confirmed by Man's history, it is
almost iron-clad guaranteed -- by nature -- there will not be that very,
very, special one in a thousand, one in a million, one in a trillion, or one
in a quadrillion. Simple physics, besides simple life.

My turn to quote...from The Lessons of History (copyright 1968), ch. III,
Biology and History, by Will and Ariel Durant: "The third biological lesson
of history is that life must breed. Nature has no use for organisms,
variations, or groups that cannot reproduce abundantly. She has a passion
for quantity as prerequisite to the selection of quality; she likes large
litters, and relishes the struggle that picks the surviving few... She is
more interested in the species than in the individual, and makes little
difference between civilization and barbarism. She does not care that a high
birth rate has usually accompanied a culturally low civilization, and a low
birth rate a civilization culturally high; and she (here meaning Nature as
the process of birth, variation, competition, selection, and survival) sees
to it that a nation with a low birth rate shall be periodically chastened by
some more virile and fertile group. Gaul survived against the Germans
through the help of Roman legions in Caesar's days, and through the help of
British and American legions in our time. When Rome fell the Franks rushed
in from Germany and made Gaul France; if England and America should fall,
France, whose population remained almost stationary through the nineteenth
century, might again be overrun."

I shall quote again, quite a long one but it has to be that way, from The
History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (first published,
1776) -- Prosperity Begins to Breed Decay: "It was scarcely possible that
the eyes of contemporaries should discover in the public felicity the latent
causes of decay and corruption. This long peace, and the uniform government
of the Romans, introduced a slow and secret poison into the vitals of the
empire. The minds of men were gradually reduced to the same level, the fire
of genius was extinguished, and even the military spirit evaporated. The
natives of Europe were brave and robust, Spain, Gaul, Britain, and Illyricum
supplied the legions with excellent soldiers, and constituted the real
strength of the monarchy. Their personal valor remained, but they no longer
possessed that public courage which is nourished by the love of
independence, the sense of national honor, the presence of danger, and the
habit of command. They received laws and governors from the will of their
sovereign, and trusted for their defence to a mercenary army. The posterity
of their boldest leaders was contented with the rank of citizens and
subjects. The most aspiring spirits resorted to the court or standard of the
emperors; and the deserted provinces, deprived of political strength or
union, insensibly sunk into the languid indifference of private life.

"The love of letters, almost inseparable from peace and refinement, was
fashionable among the subjects of Hadrian and the Antonines, who were
themselves men of learning and curiosity. It was diffused over the whole
extent of their empire; the most northern tribes of Britons had acquired a
taste for rhetoric; Homer as well as Virgil were transcribed and studied on
the banks of the Rhine and Danube; and the most liberal rewards sought out
the faintest glimmerings of literary merit. The sciences of physic and
astronomy were successfully cultivated by the Greeks; the observations of
Ptolemy and the writings of Galen are studied by those who have improved
their discoveries and corrected errors; but if we except the inimitable
Lucian, this age of indolence passed away without having produced a single
writer of original genius, or who excelled in the arts of elegant
composition. The authority of Plato and Aristotle, of Zeno and Epicurus,
still reigned in the schools; and their systems, transmitted with blind
deference from one generation of disciples to another, precluded every
generous attempt to exercise the powers, or enlarge the limits, of the human
mind. The beauties of the poets and orators, instead of kindling a fire like
their own, inspired only cold and servile imitations: or if any ventured to
deviate from those models, they deviated at the same time from good sense
and propriety. On the revival of letters, the youthful vigour of the
imagination, after a long repose, national emulation, a new religion, new
languages, and a New World, called forth the genius of Europe. But the
provincials of Rome, trained by a uniform artificial foreign education, were
engaged in a very unequal competition with those bold ancients, who, by
expressing their genuine feelings in their native tongue, had already
occupied every place of honor. The name of Poet was almost forgotten; that
of Orator was usurped by the sophists. A cloud of critics, of compilers, of
commentators, darkened the face of learning, and the decline of genius was
soon followed by the corruption of taste.

"The sublime Longinus, who in a somewhat later period, and in the court of
a Syrian queen, preserved the spirit of ancient Athens, observes and laments
this degeneracy of his contemporaries, which debased their sentiments,
enervated their courage, and depressed their talents. 'In the same manner,'
says he, 'as some children always remain pigmies, whose infant limbs have
been too closely confined; thus our tender minds, fettered by the prejudices
and habits of a just servitude, are unable to expand themselves, or to
attain that well-proportioned greatness which we admire in the ancients; who
living under a popular government, wrote with the same freedom as they
acted.' This diminutive stature of mankind, if we pursue the metaphor, was
daily sinking below the old standard, and the Roman world was indeed peopled
by a race of pygmies; when the fierce giants of the north broke in, and
mended the puny breed. They restored a manly spirit of freedom; and after
the revolution of ten centuries, freedom became the happy parent of taste
and science."

Just in case I lost someone with zero memory and almost zero attention
span along the way:

From The Lessons of History (copyright 1968), ch. III, Biology and
History, by Will and Ariel Durant: "The third biological lesson of history
is that life must breed. Nature has no use for organisms, variations, or
groups that cannot reproduce abundantly. She has a passion for quantity as
prerequisite to the selection of quality; she likes large litters, and
relishes the struggle that picks the surviving few... She is more interested
in the species than in the individual, and makes little difference between
civilization and barbarism. She does not care that a high birth rate has
usually accompanied a culturally low civilization, and a low birth rate a
civilization culturally high; and she (here meaning Nature as the process of
birth, variation, competition, selection, and survival) sees to it that a
nation with a low birth rate shall be periodically chastened by some more
virile and fertile group. Gaul survived against the Germans through the help
of Roman legions in Caesar's days, and through the help of British and
American legions in our time. When Rome fell the Franks rushed in from
Germany and made Gaul France; if England and America should fall, France,
whose population remained almost stationary through the nineteenth century,
might again be overrun."

For there to be the one in a thousand first requires the thousand to be
the one in... The one in a million, billion, trillion, or quadrillion, first
requires the million, the billion, the trillion, or the quadrillion.

GLB

"G. L. Bradford" wrote in message
news

snip

You've undoubtedly heard the saying that he or she is one in a thousand
or one in a million. Or even one in a billion or trillion, or quadrillion.
But for there to be that one in a thousand, that one in a million or
billion, or that one in a trillion or quadrillion, almost iron-clad
guaranteed, there must be first and foremost in existence the thousand,
the billion, the trillion, the quadrillion, or by nature, confirmed by
Man's history, it is almost iron-clad guaranteed -- by nature -- there
will not be that very, very, special one in a thousand, one in a million,
one in a trillion, or one in a quadrillion. Simple physics, besides simple
life.

Snip lots

Or to put it succinctly, the weak anthropic principle
relies on a multiplicity. Applied to Earth, it implies
the existence of numerous habitable planets. Applied to
the "fine tuning" of the universe, it implies a multiverse
of some type.

George

The great mystery of zero is that it escaped even the Greeks.

-- Robert Logan

A place is nothing, not even space, unless at its heart a figure stands.

-- Paul Dirac

--
Ahmed Ouahi, Architect
Best Regards!


"G. L. Bradford" wrote in message
m...

"Ahmed Ouahi, Architect" wrote in message
...

There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy.
That used to be a huge number.

But it's only a hundred billion.
It's less than the national deficit!

We used to call them astronomical numbers.
Now we should call them economical numbers.

-- Richard Feynman

--
Ahmed Ouahi, Architect
Best Regards!

Cool, Ahmed. As used to be the saying, real cool. I enjoy your often
very
fitting quotes to the max.

I've now long called the Big Bang the constant of the Big Bang Horizon,
or
the collapsed horizon of an infinite Universe out from any point such as
the
Earth or you or me, or even Luke Skywalker in a galaxy far, far away...or
even an atom of hydrogen anywhere. Seen another way, the collapsed horizon
of relativity being of a duality with the Planck Horizon. The Horizon that
is here, there, everywhere, and nowhere at all. Therefore a surface as
well,
1-dimensional by 1-dimensional by 0-dimensional, or 1 square dimensional
surface (Unity = 1).

How many 0-dimensional points would there be to such a [Planck / Big
Bang]
flat Universe surface / horizon? An infinitesimal indistinguishable from
zero...depth of surface? But I'm leading you along and I shouldn't be. A
surface infinite in its square or breadth, and just as infinite in its
depth
of surface for being infinitesimal in depth -- regardless of infinitesimal
being [relatively] indistinguishable from zero.

Others laughed. They've obviously never heard, or have chosen to forget,

or never understood in the first place, that history always repeats itself
in larger, smoother, aspect, even if not in smaller, courser, detail. You
can't get much more historically bigger in picture vis-a-vis life than the
simplest of all, therefore the most complex of all, flat surface
[membranous] "cellular" structure and/or infrastructure -- "regardless of
infinitesimal being [relativity] indistinguishable from zero." "How many
0-dimensional points would there be to such a...flat...surface?"

"Unity = 1" is taken to be the ultimate of order. Ultra-order. It is
actually the ultimate of disorder. Ultra-disorder. The [Planck / Big Bang]
surface / horizon is the ultimate of heat, the ultra of hot, therefore the
ultimate in disorder, the ultimate in chaos -- or quantum chaos. Even
ancient Biblical references back that up. The fabled one tree (Unity = 1)
at
the center of the Garden of Eden being pure poison, pure chaos, as deadly
as
deadly can get. The fabled 'Babel' of All Mankind, where all mankind
gathers
into a unity of oneness (Unity = 1), being pure complication, pure
confusion, pure confused state, pure chaos, tyranny, anarchy, as deadly as
deadly can get (as volatile as volatile can get). Even those most
practical
of all the ancient thinkers, the ancient Greeks, entitled the unity
(Unity),
the oneness ('1'), of Man or Life, the Harmony of Man or Life (the
Paradise
of Man or Life), Utopia. 'U-topos', meaning no-place or nowhere...
'Nowhereland' (the modern being, "Dystopia").

Projection from Man and all Life on Earth, as to resource usage, into
the
solar system, it has been estimated that the solar system, out to the
Kuiper
and Oort Clouds, could probably comfortably support up to 80 quadrillion
humans atop an Earth corresponding pyramid of life throughout the solar
system, providing of course that expansion and growth into the solar
system
is by way of a mini-galactic modeling. An Ark or island-worldlet modeling
in
O'Neill or Stanford Torus type Space Colonies, plus the symbiotic space
complex, the space infrastructure, supporting them and being supported by
them -- the local and wide area networks and networking that would tie it
all together.

"EIGHTY-QUADRILLION HUMANS!!! JUST THE APEX OF A MIND NUMBING, MIND
BOGGLING, PYRAMID OF LIFE!!!" How many just around here would faint in
horror of such numbers existing much less poised on the brink of the next
frontier up, such bulk of humanity existing much less poised on the brink,
such bulk of life, such conversion of solar systemic mass to life energy,
to
energy, to writhing energies, to "cellular structure," to "cellular
infrastructure." Let them faint in their horror. "You can't get much more
historically bigger in picture vis-a-vis life than the simplest of all,
therefore the most complex of all, flat surface [membranous] 'cellular'
structure and/or infrastructure -- 'regardless of infinitesimal being
[relatively] indistinguishable from zero." "How many 0-dimensional points
would there be to such a...flat...surface?"

"How many 0-dimensional points would there be to such a [Planck / Big
Bang] flat Universe surface / horizon? An infinitesimal indistinguishable
from zero...depth of surface? A surface infinite in its square or breadth,
and just as infinite in its depth of surface for being infinitesimal in
depth -- regardless of infinitesimal being [relatively] indistinguishable
from zero."

GLB

However, along that matter, would not be a possible without paying an
attention to the fact, that it has had been always, the individuals which
has had advance anything as has advanced the species by the same occasion,
and that is a fact, none would be without to admit, whether, the species,
especially along the human beings has had always as a definitely a deep
connection to one an other, sometimes, they do miss to recognize it,
somehow, along the successive amounts of an events, which it does creates
the circumstances.

Therefore, the evolution of anything would ever and ever be stoped by
anything, and not especially by the species, along the human beings
themeselves -along a research of a power-, whether, from a time to an other
would be a just a matter of a time, as a matter of the way, the creations
does perceive anything along any event, which are a just a natural factors.

However, exactly the way as the manners, has had been remaked a referrence
to an electron as an electrine as has had gave, almost the beginning of a
known calculation of its value, as it is along that matter has had been
shown, that famous as a magical trio of G, c and an e, as along their
combination, has had appear, first of all, as a thoughts an extreme unit of
a mass, and an other unit of a length and especially an unit of a time,
which it has had been created along that a magical a trio, whether, it has
had stays the velocity of a light along which has had been used an average
of already existimg measurements, as always, along the individuals, which
are the absolute pillars of a civilisations, whether, the most of a time,
their psycho-biological side does turns anything all along, the reason that
would be as a stay the economical side always as a definitely based on the
needs, and this a simply what it had been and what it is along that matter,
a definitely as a matter a fact.

P.S- Only and only, the Love can conquer, everything...

--
Ahmed Ouahi, Architect
Best Regards!


"G. L. Bradford" wrote in message
news

"Ahmed Ouahi, Architect" wrote in message
...

There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy.
That used to be a huge number.

But it's only a hundred billion.
It's less than the national deficit!

We used to call them astronomical numbers.
Now we should call them economical numbers.

-- Richard Feynman

--
Ahmed Ouahi, Architect
Best Regards!

Given my other responses as buildup, I've grown too impatient in
buildup,
so I will deliver the final scene, and the punchline, here and now
vis-a-vis
life.

You've undoubtedly heard the saying that he or she is one in a thousand
or
one in a million. Or even one in a billion or trillion, or quadrillion.
But
for there to be that one in a thousand, that one in a million or billion,
or
that one in a trillion or quadrillion, almost iron-clad guaranteed, there
must be first and foremost in existence the thousand, the billion, the
trillion, the quadrillion, or by nature, confirmed by Man's history, it is
almost iron-clad guaranteed -- by nature -- there will not be that very,
very, special one in a thousand, one in a million, one in a trillion, or
one
in a quadrillion. Simple physics, besides simple life.

My turn to quote...from The Lessons of History (copyright 1968), ch.
III,
Biology and History, by Will and Ariel Durant: "The third biological
lesson
of history is that life must breed. Nature has no use for organisms,
variations, or groups that cannot reproduce abundantly. She has a passion
for quantity as prerequisite to the selection of quality; she likes large
litters, and relishes the struggle that picks the surviving few... She is
more interested in the species than in the individual, and makes little
difference between civilization and barbarism. She does not care that a
high
birth rate has usually accompanied a culturally low civilization, and a
low
birth rate a civilization culturally high; and she (here meaning Nature as
the process of birth, variation, competition, selection, and survival)
sees
to it that a nation with a low birth rate shall be periodically chastened
by
some more virile and fertile group. Gaul survived against the Germans
through the help of Roman legions in Caesar's days, and through the help
of
British and American legions in our time. When Rome fell the Franks rushed
in from Germany and made Gaul France; if England and America should fall,
France, whose population remained almost stationary through the nineteenth
century, might again be overrun."

I shall quote again, quite a long one but it has to be that way, from
The
History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (first published,
1776) -- Prosperity Begins to Breed Decay: "It was scarcely possible that
the eyes of contemporaries should discover in the public felicity the
latent
causes of decay and corruption. This long peace, and the uniform
government
of the Romans, introduced a slow and secret poison into the vitals of the
empire. The minds of men were gradually reduced to the same level, the
fire
of genius was extinguished, and even the military spirit evaporated. The
natives of Europe were brave and robust, Spain, Gaul, Britain, and
Illyricum
supplied the legions with excellent soldiers, and constituted the real
strength of the monarchy. Their personal valor remained, but they no
longer
possessed that public courage which is nourished by the love of
independence, the sense of national honor, the presence of danger, and the
habit of command. They received laws and governors from the will of their
sovereign, and trusted for their defence to a mercenary army. The
posterity
of their boldest leaders was contented with the rank of citizens and
subjects. The most aspiring spirits resorted to the court or standard of
the
emperors; and the deserted provinces, deprived of political strength or
union, insensibly sunk into the languid indifference of private life.

"The love of letters, almost inseparable from peace and refinement, was
fashionable among the subjects of Hadrian and the Antonines, who were
themselves men of learning and curiosity. It was diffused over the whole
extent of their empire; the most northern tribes of Britons had acquired a
taste for rhetoric; Homer as well as Virgil were transcribed and studied
on
the banks of the Rhine and Danube; and the most liberal rewards sought out
the faintest glimmerings of literary merit. The sciences of physic and
astronomy were successfully cultivated by the Greeks; the observations of
Ptolemy and the writings of Galen are studied by those who have improved
their discoveries and corrected errors; but if we except the inimitable
Lucian, this age of indolence passed away without having produced a single
writer of original genius, or who excelled in the arts of elegant
composition. The authority of Plato and Aristotle, of Zeno and Epicurus,
still reigned in the schools; and their systems, transmitted with blind
deference from one generation of disciples to another, precluded every
generous attempt to exercise the powers, or enlarge the limits, of the
human
mind. The beauties of the poets and orators, instead of kindling a fire
like
their own, inspired only cold and servile imitations: or if any ventured
to
deviate from those models, they deviated at the same time from good sense
and propriety. On the revival of letters, the youthful vigour of the
imagination, after a long repose, national emulation, a new religion, new
languages, and a New World, called forth the genius of Europe. But the
provincials of Rome, trained by a uniform artificial foreign education,
were
engaged in a very unequal competition with those bold ancients, who, by
expressing their genuine feelings in their native tongue, had already
occupied every place of honor. The name of Poet was almost forgotten; that
of Orator was usurped by the sophists. A cloud of critics, of compilers,
of
commentators, darkened the face of learning, and the decline of genius was
soon followed by the corruption of taste.

"The sublime Longinus, who in a somewhat later period, and in the court
of
a Syrian queen, preserved the spirit of ancient Athens, observes and
laments
this degeneracy of his contemporaries, which debased their sentiments,
enervated their courage, and depressed their talents. 'In the same
manner,'
says he, 'as some children always remain pigmies, whose infant limbs have
been too closely confined; thus our tender minds, fettered by the
prejudices
and habits of a just servitude, are unable to expand themselves, or to
attain that well-proportioned greatness which we admire in the ancients;
who
living under a popular government, wrote with the same freedom as they
acted.' This diminutive stature of mankind, if we pursue the metaphor, was
daily sinking below the old standard, and the Roman world was indeed
peopled
by a race of pygmies; when the fierce giants of the north broke in, and
mended the puny breed. They restored a manly spirit of freedom; and after
the revolution of ten centuries, freedom became the happy parent of taste
and science."

Just in case I lost someone with zero memory and almost zero attention
span along the way:

From The Lessons of History (copyright 1968), ch. III, Biology and
History, by Will and Ariel Durant: "The third biological lesson of history
is that life must breed. Nature has no use for organisms, variations, or
groups that cannot reproduce abundantly. She has a passion for quantity as
prerequisite to the selection of quality; she likes large litters, and
relishes the struggle that picks the surviving few... She is more
interested
in the species than in the individual, and makes little difference between
civilization and barbarism. She does not care that a high birth rate has
usually accompanied a culturally low civilization, and a low birth rate a
civilization culturally high; and she (here meaning Nature as the process
of
birth, variation, competition, selection, and survival) sees to it that a
nation with a low birth rate shall be periodically chastened by some more
virile and fertile group. Gaul survived against the Germans through the
help
of Roman legions in Caesar's days, and through the help of British and
American legions in our time. When Rome fell the Franks rushed in from
Germany and made Gaul France; if England and America should fall, France,
whose population remained almost stationary through the nineteenth
century,
might again be overrun."

For there to be the one in a thousand first requires the thousand to be
the one in... The one in a million, billion, trillion, or quadrillion,
first
requires the million, the billion, the trillion, or the quadrillion.

GLB

"George Dishman" wrote in message
...

"G. L. Bradford" wrote in message
news

snip

You've undoubtedly heard the saying that he or she is one in a thousand
or one in a million. Or even one in a billion or trillion, or
quadrillion. But for there to be that one in a thousand, that one in a
million or billion, or that one in a trillion or quadrillion, almost
iron-clad guaranteed, there must be first and foremost in existence the
thousand, the billion, the trillion, the quadrillion, or by nature,
confirmed by Man's history, it is almost iron-clad guaranteed -- by
nature -- there will not be that very, very, special one in a thousand,
one in a million, one in a trillion, or one in a quadrillion. Simple
physics, besides simple life.

Snip lots

Or to put it succinctly, the weak anthropic principle
relies on a multiplicity. Applied to Earth, it implies
the existence of numerous habitable planets. Applied to
the "fine tuning" of the universe, it implies a multiverse
of some type.

George

You've got some idea of how to look at the same thing in six or more
different ways and that's just fine. You way isn't original but it's quite
original here and, again, that's just great.

GLB

"George Dishman" schrieb
My
point was that if you allow for the increase of kinetic
energy in the solar sail case then energy is conserved
but there appear to be situations globally where there is
no equivalent way to do that in GR.

There is the Landau pseudotensor. You can use it
to define a conserved notion of energy in any given
system of coordinates. The only problem is that
the resulting energy distributions depend on the
choice of coordinates.

This leads to problems if you want to define it
for nontrivial manifolds. But our universe seems
to be flat, one chart seems sufficient.

No, it isn't choice if GR is accurate then energy may
not be conserved globally even though it is locally.

There is no "local but not global" energy conservation
in GR. The equation nabla_m T_mn = 0 which is
sometimes named local conservation law is the
generalization of a local conservation law but
does not have the form of a local conservation law
partial_m T_mn = 0.

I say "may not" because I think it depends on overall
topology or possibly just curvature. For example we
might make the problem go away by _assuming_ that the
universe is asymptotically flat. I'm not sure what a
full set of 'necessary and sufficient' conditions would
be though.

One consistent way, but with modification of GR:

1. Postulate that there exists a single preferred global chart.
2a. Use the Landau tensor in this chart.
2b. Postulate that this global chart is harmonic. Use the
harmonic equation as the local conservation law.
3. Add the harmonic equation as a new equation.
4. If you want a Lagrangian for this, add a term
which enforces harmonic gauge: n_ab g^ab sqrt(-g)
with Minkowski metric n_ab does the job.
5. Observe interesting properties of the additional
term: It stops the BH collaps and the BB singularity.

And, for people without prejudice against the e word:

6. Add a preferred frame and use the ADM decomposition
to give an ether interpretation in terms of density, velocity
and stress tensor of some ether, so that the harmonic condition
translates into continuity and Euler equations.

More see gr-qc/0205035

Ilja

"Ilja Schmelzer" wrote in message
...

"George Dishman" schrieb
My
point was that if you allow for the increase of kinetic
energy in the solar sail case then energy is conserved
but there appear to be situations globally where there is
no equivalent way to do that in GR.

There is the Landau pseudotensor. You can use it
to define a conserved notion of energy in any given
system of coordinates. The only problem is that
the resulting energy distributions depend on the
choice of coordinates.

Isn't that always true, e.g. kinetic energy.

This leads to problems if you want to define it
for nontrivial manifolds. But our universe seems
to be flat, one chart seems sufficient.

That was what I was alluding to when I said that
with some assumptions the problem may be able to
be resolved. In fact I mention that just a few
lines below.

No, it isn't choice if GR is accurate then energy may
not be conserved globally even though it is locally.

There is no "local but not global" energy conservation
in GR. The equation nabla_m T_mn = 0 which is
sometimes named local conservation law is the
generalization of a local conservation law but
does not have the form of a local conservation law
partial_m T_mn = 0.

OK, maybe I was inaccurate in summarising the first
few paragraphs of the FAQ:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...energy_gr.html


I say "may not" because I think it depends on overall
topology or possibly just curvature. For example we
might make the problem go away by _assuming_ that the
universe is asymptotically flat. I'm not sure what a
full set of 'necessary and sufficient' conditions would
be though.

One consistent way, but with modification of GR:

1. Postulate that there exists a single preferred global chart.
2a. Use the Landau tensor in this chart.
2b. Postulate that this global chart is harmonic. Use the
harmonic equation as the local conservation law.
3. Add the harmonic equation as a new equation.
4. If you want a Lagrangian for this, add a term
which enforces harmonic gauge: n_ab g^ab sqrt(-g)
with Minkowski metric n_ab does the job.
5. Observe interesting properties of the additional
term: It stops the BH collaps and the BB singularity.

Is such a solution testable? Wouldn't it produce
very bright supermassive BHs if impacting mass
doesn't cross the event horizon?

And, for people without prejudice against the e word:

I have no prejudice against it, but I would want to
see specific evidence for its existence otherwise
Occam's Razor applies.

George

"George Dishman" schrieb
"Ilja Schmelzer" wrote
One consistent way, but with modification of GR:

1. Postulate that there exists a single preferred global chart.
2a. Use the Landau tensor in this chart.
2b. Postulate that this global chart is harmonic. Use the
harmonic equation as the local conservation law.
3. Add the harmonic equation as a new equation.
4. If you want a Lagrangian for this, add a term
which enforces harmonic gauge: n_ab g^ab sqrt(-g)
with Minkowski metric n_ab does the job.
5. Observe interesting properties of the additional
term: It stops the BH collaps and the BB singularity.

Is such a solution testable? Wouldn't it produce
very bright supermassive BHs if impacting mass
doesn't cross the event horizon?

No, the surface would be highly redshifted, so
that nothing is visible.

And, for people without prejudice against the e word:

I have no prejudice against it, but I would want to
see specific evidence for its existence otherwise
Occam's Razor applies.

There are lots of them, but the best is imho my
ether model for the standard model. I have posted
it some time ago in
Message-ID:

Ilja