Big Bang Busted in Science Classes for High Schools

From Painius:

Frankly, i believe it (the BB) raises more
questions than it answers. And i find this
unhealthy in a theory. It looks like the
BB, as it exists today, is soon to be
dramatically altered. And not soon
enough for me.

Out of curiosity Paine, what aspect(s) of the BB model do you find
objectionable? Is it the "everything coming out of nothing" enigma?
What i see as most needful in the present model is
clarification of exactly *what* came out of the BB, carrying matter
along for the ride. It is said that "space" or "spacetime" expanded out,
yet paradoxically space is considered 'nothingness' or 'void'. This
appears to be the biggest enigma of the present BB model. oc

Hi oc no one in this space time can say space is nothingness(that would
mean Casmir plates are pushed together by nothing) We know of a false
vacuum. We know that the big bang could be a fluctuation in the fabric
of space and its waves. oc I give the force of gravity creating the
compression force to create the fluctuation of space waves. I can using
my theory to visualize gravity makes these waves into a quantum foam,and
since it creates the bubbles of the foam makes them pop. We call this
pop the big bang. It all began in an area as small or smaller than a
Planck length Bert.

Hi oc no one in this space time can say space is nothingness(that would
mean Casmir plates are pushed together by nothing) We know of a false
vacuum. We know that the big bang could be a fluctuation in the fabric
of space and its waves. oc I give the force of gravity creating the
compression force to create the fluctuation of space waves. I can using
my theory to visualize gravity makes these waves into a quantum foam,and
since it creates the bubbles of the foam makes them pop. We call this
pop the big bang. It all began in an area as small or smaller than a
Planck length Bert.

(snip)
I shall not deny the possibility of an infinite consciousness.
I cannot accept its reality without evidence. You got any?

What evidence? Do you doubt the reality of your own innermost infinite
consciousness?

I have read of it, but no, i have no basis from which to
accept that there is such a thing as an infinite consciousness
within me. Those who have supposedly reached this level
of so-called enlightenment are apparently self-deluded. It
is the epitome of hubris to think that humans are capable of
anything more than what we can accomplish in our lifetimes...
however long those lifetimes may be.


It is sufficient to know that your consciousness has the reach even
beyond the universe. What is beyond(!) universe?


It is from this singular consciousness the whole universe 'seems' to
originate as illusory. As such, there is no need of creation and
evolution for such an illusory universe.

And so, bigbang(or other) creation and evolution can neither be
persued in science nor can they be taught as science in schools and
colleges.


We have only that which we can measure, Shastry. If
we cannot measure it, then it has only a shadow of
meaning. If it can be derived, then you are halfway
"there." If it can be measured, then you have "arrived."


You cannot depend only on the measurements, the nature of the universe
has to be known at first to determine how far can they be depended
upon.

One can only derive a singularity using pure mathematics.


Singularity is not derived it occurs at zero point.


So the first half of our trek is done. The second half is
trickier, for we must find a meaningful way to measure
a singularity, and then we must find a singularity and
measure it.


Measurement of singularity?


To accept the existence of a singularity
without painstakingly measuring it to confirm its actual
properties is to chase after wild geese, while the family
stays at home and starves.


How can anyone measure singularity?


So just as it is meaningful to know the origins of the
great river that sustains the population, it is meaningful
for science to learn the origins of the universe. And it
is natural for people to impart their ideas to students
in hopes that one or more of them will build upon this
knowledge and win victories for all humanity.


One cannot win victories on delusory teachings.


What victories can you bring to the world that may
spring from your esoteric and mysterious singularity?

What victories can you bring to the world which deludes you as to
believe in (bigbang or other)creation and evolution?

And so, wake up and smell the.....in creation and evolution!

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

S S Shastry

(snip)
I shall not deny the possibility of an infinite consciousness.
I cannot accept its reality without evidence. You got any?

What evidence? Do you doubt the reality of your own innermost infinite
consciousness?

I have read of it, but no, i have no basis from which to
accept that there is such a thing as an infinite consciousness
within me. Those who have supposedly reached this level
of so-called enlightenment are apparently self-deluded. It
is the epitome of hubris to think that humans are capable of
anything more than what we can accomplish in our lifetimes...
however long those lifetimes may be.


It is sufficient to know that your consciousness has the reach even
beyond the universe. What is beyond(!) universe?


It is from this singular consciousness the whole universe 'seems' to
originate as illusory. As such, there is no need of creation and
evolution for such an illusory universe.

And so, bigbang(or other) creation and evolution can neither be
persued in science nor can they be taught as science in schools and
colleges.


We have only that which we can measure, Shastry. If
we cannot measure it, then it has only a shadow of
meaning. If it can be derived, then you are halfway
"there." If it can be measured, then you have "arrived."


You cannot depend only on the measurements, the nature of the universe
has to be known at first to determine how far can they be depended
upon.

One can only derive a singularity using pure mathematics.


Singularity is not derived it occurs at zero point.


So the first half of our trek is done. The second half is
trickier, for we must find a meaningful way to measure
a singularity, and then we must find a singularity and
measure it.


Measurement of singularity?


To accept the existence of a singularity
without painstakingly measuring it to confirm its actual
properties is to chase after wild geese, while the family
stays at home and starves.


How can anyone measure singularity?


So just as it is meaningful to know the origins of the
great river that sustains the population, it is meaningful
for science to learn the origins of the universe. And it
is natural for people to impart their ideas to students
in hopes that one or more of them will build upon this
knowledge and win victories for all humanity.


One cannot win victories on delusory teachings.


What victories can you bring to the world that may
spring from your esoteric and mysterious singularity?

What victories can you bring to the world which deludes you as to
believe in (bigbang or other)creation and evolution?

And so, wake up and smell the.....in creation and evolution!

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

S S Shastry

More on the illusory aspect please. I woke up a few days ago and it
occurred to me that the universe itself should not even exist. It makes no
sense. Where in nature is there only one of anything, and if there are more
"universi" where the hell are they? I haven't even got to the "why" yet.
Crap.
"Shrikantha S. Shastry" wrote in message
om...
(snip)
I shall not deny the possibility of an infinite consciousness.
I cannot accept its reality without evidence. You got any?

What evidence? Do you doubt the reality of your own innermost infinite
consciousness?

I have read of it, but no, i have no basis from which to
accept that there is such a thing as an infinite consciousness
within me. Those who have supposedly reached this level
of so-called enlightenment are apparently self-deluded. It
is the epitome of hubris to think that humans are capable of
anything more than what we can accomplish in our lifetimes...
however long those lifetimes may be.


It is sufficient to know that your consciousness has the reach even
beyond the universe. What is beyond(!) universe?


It is from this singular consciousness the whole universe 'seems' to
originate as illusory. As such, there is no need of creation and
evolution for such an illusory universe.

And so, bigbang(or other) creation and evolution can neither be
persued in science nor can they be taught as science in schools and
colleges.


We have only that which we can measure, Shastry. If
we cannot measure it, then it has only a shadow of
meaning. If it can be derived, then you are halfway
"there." If it can be measured, then you have "arrived."


You cannot depend only on the measurements, the nature of the universe
has to be known at first to determine how far can they be depended
upon.

One can only derive a singularity using pure mathematics.


Singularity is not derived it occurs at zero point.


So the first half of our trek is done. The second half is
trickier, for we must find a meaningful way to measure
a singularity, and then we must find a singularity and
measure it.


Measurement of singularity?


To accept the existence of a singularity
without painstakingly measuring it to confirm its actual
properties is to chase after wild geese, while the family
stays at home and starves.


How can anyone measure singularity?


So just as it is meaningful to know the origins of the
great river that sustains the population, it is meaningful
for science to learn the origins of the universe. And it
is natural for people to impart their ideas to students
in hopes that one or more of them will build upon this
knowledge and win victories for all humanity.


One cannot win victories on delusory teachings.


What victories can you bring to the world that may
spring from your esoteric and mysterious singularity?

What victories can you bring to the world which deludes you as to
believe in (bigbang or other)creation and evolution?

And so, wake up and smell the.....in creation and evolution!

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

S S Shastry

More on the illusory aspect please. I woke up a few days ago and it
occurred to me that the universe itself should not even exist. It makes no
sense. Where in nature is there only one of anything, and if there are more
"universi" where the hell are they? I haven't even got to the "why" yet.
Crap.
"Shrikantha S. Shastry" wrote in message
om...
(snip)
I shall not deny the possibility of an infinite consciousness.
I cannot accept its reality without evidence. You got any?

What evidence? Do you doubt the reality of your own innermost infinite
consciousness?

I have read of it, but no, i have no basis from which to
accept that there is such a thing as an infinite consciousness
within me. Those who have supposedly reached this level
of so-called enlightenment are apparently self-deluded. It
is the epitome of hubris to think that humans are capable of
anything more than what we can accomplish in our lifetimes...
however long those lifetimes may be.


It is sufficient to know that your consciousness has the reach even
beyond the universe. What is beyond(!) universe?


It is from this singular consciousness the whole universe 'seems' to
originate as illusory. As such, there is no need of creation and
evolution for such an illusory universe.

And so, bigbang(or other) creation and evolution can neither be
persued in science nor can they be taught as science in schools and
colleges.


We have only that which we can measure, Shastry. If
we cannot measure it, then it has only a shadow of
meaning. If it can be derived, then you are halfway
"there." If it can be measured, then you have "arrived."


You cannot depend only on the measurements, the nature of the universe
has to be known at first to determine how far can they be depended
upon.

One can only derive a singularity using pure mathematics.


Singularity is not derived it occurs at zero point.


So the first half of our trek is done. The second half is
trickier, for we must find a meaningful way to measure
a singularity, and then we must find a singularity and
measure it.


Measurement of singularity?


To accept the existence of a singularity
without painstakingly measuring it to confirm its actual
properties is to chase after wild geese, while the family
stays at home and starves.


How can anyone measure singularity?


So just as it is meaningful to know the origins of the
great river that sustains the population, it is meaningful
for science to learn the origins of the universe. And it
is natural for people to impart their ideas to students
in hopes that one or more of them will build upon this
knowledge and win victories for all humanity.


One cannot win victories on delusory teachings.


What victories can you bring to the world that may
spring from your esoteric and mysterious singularity?

What victories can you bring to the world which deludes you as to
believe in (bigbang or other)creation and evolution?

And so, wake up and smell the.....in creation and evolution!

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

S S Shastry

"Heather" wrote in message ...
More on the illusory aspect please. I woke up a few days ago and it
occurred to me that the universe itself should not even exist. It makes no
sense. Where in nature is there only one of anything, and if there are more
"universi" where the hell are they? I haven't even got to the "why" yet.
Crap.


Universe(s) never exist. What exists is the singularity on which the
illusory universe(s) merely appear. Obviously, there is no need of
creation and evolution for such illusory universe(s). And so, how can
they be taught as facts in schools and colleges?

S S Shastry

"Heather" wrote in message ...
More on the illusory aspect please. I woke up a few days ago and it
occurred to me that the universe itself should not even exist. It makes no
sense. Where in nature is there only one of anything, and if there are more
"universi" where the hell are they? I haven't even got to the "why" yet.
Crap.


Universe(s) never exist. What exists is the singularity on which the
illusory universe(s) merely appear. Obviously, there is no need of
creation and evolution for such illusory universe(s). And so, how can
they be taught as facts in schools and colleges?

S S Shastry

"Shrikantha S. Shastry" wrote...
in message om...

. . . i have no basis from which to
accept that there is such a thing as an infinite consciousness
within me. Those who have supposedly reached this level
of so-called enlightenment are apparently self-deluded. It
is the epitome of hubris to think that humans are capable of
anything more than what we can accomplish in our lifetimes...
however long those lifetimes may be.

It is sufficient to know that your consciousness has the reach even
beyond the universe. What is beyond(!) universe?

I disagree. It is *not* sufficient just to "know" this. If my
consciousness has this power, this "reach" even beyond
the universe, then knowing this must be *much* more
than mere blind acceptance of this as fact. For once you
go to try to prove this to yourself, you find out either that
you have been temporarily delusional (and the truth snaps
you out of it), or you don't find out a thing... you simply
wind up in a mental health institution... or you commit
suicide.

So i must ask you to be very careful, Shastry, should you
ever attempt to prove that you yourself have this power.

Wouldn't want to lose you!

It is from this singular consciousness the whole universe 'seems' to
originate as illusory. As such, there is no need of creation and
evolution for such an illusory universe.

And so, bigbang(or other) creation and evolution can neither be
persued in science nor can they be taught as science in schools and
colleges.

You seem very sure of yourself on this part. And cheers
to you for your persistence. But as i have mentioned many
times... this is all part of your personal delusion. No one,
NOBODY on Earth knows the makeup of the real universe.
We have not experienced it yet.

We have only that which we can measure, Shastry. If
we cannot measure it, then it has only a shadow of
meaning. If it can be derived, then you are halfway
"there." If it can be measured, then you have "arrived."

You cannot depend only on the measurements, the nature of the universe
has to be known at first to determine how far can they be depended
upon.

There may be more truth in this your statement than science
would care to accept. However, *if* the alternative is to sit
around all day praying and meditating, or "contemplating" my
smelly belly button, then i'm afraid that i would prefer to do
the measurements.

One can only derive a singularity using pure mathematics.

Singularity is not derived it occurs at zero point.

A singularity most certainly *can* be derived by math and by
science. This is how we originally theorized the existence of
singularities in nature, which then led us to reverse time and in
our minds envision the Big Bang origin of the universe. You,
my friend, would have never even heard of the word "singularity"
if it hadn't been for its origin in astronomy. And this brings me
to an interesting point...

If astronomy had never invented the term "singularity," what
would you be calling it in this conversation?

So the first half of our trek is done. The second half is
trickier, for we must find a meaningful way to measure
a singularity, and then we must find a singularity and
measure it.

Measurement of singularity?

If this sounds odd to you, it is because we have not yet come
up with a way to sense a singularity in nature. Yes, we have
designed ways that we think allow us to find and measure
things like neutron stars and black holes, but these are not
technically singularities... they are natural objects that seem to
be very similar... sort of "almost" singularities. Yet until we are
able to firmly theorize what happened in the first few
nanomoments of the Big Bang and before, we will stay in the
dark where measurements of a real singularity are concerned.

To accept the existence of a singularity
without painstakingly measuring it to confirm its actual
properties is to chase after wild geese, while the family
stays at home and starves.

How can anyone measure singularity?

Our gut feeling is that we are on the right track when we
study things like neutron stars and black holes. Closer
studies of such natural "almost" singularities might shed
light on what to look for in a real singularity. Frankly, it
is my unscientific insistence and opinion that the search
for a singularity in nature, and therefore the theory of a
singularity erupting into a Big Bang type of creation, is
as productive as a castrated bull.

Such theorizing is just too cut and dried, and yet too
complex and difficult to understand to be the natural
way our universe came into being.

So just as it is meaningful to know the origins of the
great river that sustains the population, it is meaningful
for science to learn the origins of the universe. And it
is natural for people to impart their ideas to students
in hopes that one or more of them will build upon this
knowledge and win victories for all humanity.

One cannot win victories on delusory teachings.

Then, since victories *have* been won over the past
centuries of human existence, we must conclude that
these teachings are not delusory. We must conclude
that the more we learn about what you are calling
"illusory" and "delusory," the better equipped we are
to fight and to win the battles of humanity.

And if you are proposing that we sheeply accept that
this is not true, then what is your alternative? What
future actions are you suggesting that we members of
humanity take to fall into this, your own version of how
the universe works and how we must behave?

What victories can you bring to the world that may
spring from your esoteric and mysterious singularity?

What victories can you bring to the world which deludes you as to
believe in (bigbang or other)creation and evolution?

And so, wake up and smell the.....in creation and evolution!

S S Shastry

These subjects, "big bangs" and in general, creation
and evolution (religion and science) inject a "tension"
into people. If nothing else, they compel people to
think. And there is much good in thinking... i think.
Don't you think?

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
a Secret of the Universe...
so please don't breathe a word of this--
the Moon above will smile perverse
whene'er it sees true lovers kiss;
(breathe not a single word of this!)

Paine Ellsworth