Lunar caving

"Pits" found on the moon:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-the-moon.html
Opening to what seems to be a lunar lava tube has been found. it
seems to be a pit over 80 m deep.
Considering that such lunar lava tubes are probably the key to
establishing a permanent lunar base, exploration of this should be a
high priority.
How to do this on the cheap?
Back in the early Gemini program, there were plans to use Gemini as a
way to get men on the moon as early as 1966 using a single man open
cockpit lander.
http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm
A variation could be resurrected using the Falcon Dragon capsule or
the new NASA capsule launched atop either the Atlas V or the new large
SpaceX launcher.
This would be a very high risk mission with the person going from
earth to the moon and landing on the moon by himself and then
descending this deep hole by himself. The person would have to be
happy being alone for long times and comfortable descending deep pits.
PICK ME, PICK ME, I VOLUNTEER. Single handed sailor, experienced
vertical caver. This would be the ultimate caving trip, after doing
this, nothing else would ever be necessary. If things fail and death
is likely, well, just give me a small cylinder of CO. This could be
the ultimate contribution to humanity.

On Oct 23, 9:52*am, Frogwatch wrote:
"Pits" found on the moon:http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-skylight-on-t...
Opening to what seems to be a lunar lava tube has been found. *it
seems to be a pit over 80 m deep.
Considering that such lunar lava tubes are probably the key to
establishing a permanent lunar base, exploration of this should be a
high priority.
How to do this on the cheap?
Back in the early Gemini program, there were plans to use Gemini as a
way to get men on the moon as early as 1966 using a single man open
cockpit lander.http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm
* A variation could be resurrected using the Falcon Dragon capsule or
the new NASA capsule launched atop either the Atlas V or the new large
SpaceX launcher.
This would be a very high risk mission with the person going from
earth to the moon and landing on the moon by himself and then
descending this deep hole by himself. *The person would have to be
happy being alone for long times and comfortable descending deep pits.
PICK ME, PICK ME, I VOLUNTEER. *Single handed sailor, experienced
vertical caver. *This would be the ultimate caving trip, after doing
this, nothing else would ever be necessary. *If things fail and death
is likely, well, just give me a small cylinder of CO. *This could be
the ultimate contribution to humanity.

Clearly, two or more people have a better chance of helping themselves
than can a single person. In fact aren't hikers and cavers encouraged
to use the buddy system when it comes to their trips? Doesn't the risk
of trouble increase drastically when people hike or cave alone?

Something tells me that you need to be limited to the simulators until
you learn about dealing with risk.

Eric

On Oct 23, 2:36*pm, Eric Chomko wrote:
On Oct 23, 9:52*am, Frogwatch wrote:



"Pits" found on the moon:http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-skylight-on-t...
Opening to what seems to be a lunar lava tube has been found. *it
seems to be a pit over 80 m deep.
Considering that such lunar lava tubes are probably the key to
establishing a permanent lunar base, exploration of this should be a
high priority.
How to do this on the cheap?
Back in the early Gemini program, there were plans to use Gemini as a
way to get men on the moon as early as 1966 using a single man open
cockpit lander.http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm
* A variation could be resurrected using the Falcon Dragon capsule or
the new NASA capsule launched atop either the Atlas V or the new large
SpaceX launcher.
This would be a very high risk mission with the person going from
earth to the moon and landing on the moon by himself and then
descending this deep hole by himself. *The person would have to be
happy being alone for long times and comfortable descending deep pits.
PICK ME, PICK ME, I VOLUNTEER. *Single handed sailor, experienced
vertical caver. *This would be the ultimate caving trip, after doing
this, nothing else would ever be necessary. *If things fail and death
is likely, well, just give me a small cylinder of CO. *This could be
the ultimate contribution to humanity.

Clearly, two or more people have a better chance of helping themselves
than can a single person. In fact aren't hikers and cavers encouraged
to use the buddy system when it comes to their trips? Doesn't the risk
of trouble increase drastically when people hike or cave alone?

Something tells me that you need to be limited to the simulators until
you learn about dealing with risk.

Eric

In this case, it is assumed to be very high risk. In ordinary
circumstances, I do not go caving with less than 3 people. This is
far from ordinary and I would be willing to take that risk.

On Oct 23, 4:54�pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Oct 23, 2:36�pm, Eric Chomko wrote:





On Oct 23, 9:52�am, Frogwatch wrote:

"Pits" found on the moon:http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-skylight-on-t...
Opening to what seems to be a lunar lava tube has been found. �it
seems to be a pit over 80 m deep.
Considering that such lunar lava tubes are probably the key to
establishing a permanent lunar base, exploration of this should be a
high priority.
How to do this on the cheap?
Back in the early Gemini program, there were plans to use Gemini as a
way to get men on the moon as early as 1966 using a single man open
cockpit lander.http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm
� A variation could be resurrected using the Falcon Dragon capsule or
the new NASA capsule launched atop either the Atlas V or the new large
SpaceX launcher.
This would be a very high risk mission with the person going from
earth to the moon and landing on the moon by himself and then
descending this deep hole by himself. �The person would have to be
happy being alone for long times and comfortable descending deep pits..
PICK ME, PICK ME, I VOLUNTEER. �Single handed sailor, experienced
vertical caver. �This would be the ultimate caving trip, after doing
this, nothing else would ever be necessary. �If things fail and death
is likely, well, just give me a small cylinder of CO. �This could be
the ultimate contribution to humanity.

Clearly, two or more people have a better chance of helping themselves
than can a single person. In fact aren't hikers and cavers encouraged
to use the buddy system when it comes to their trips? Doesn't the risk
of trouble increase drastically when people hike or cave alone?

Something tells me that you need to be limited to the simulators until
you learn about dealing with risk.

Eric

In this case, it is assumed to be very high risk. �In ordinary
circumstances, I do not go caving with less than 3 people. �This is
far from ordinary and I would be willing to take that risk.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

time for AI artifical intelliogence explorers, first on moon the to
mars and beyond.

costs far less, little life support type items needed.

advances artifical intelligence and robotics a lot

no one dies when lava tube collapses

On Oct 23, 9:48�pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
" wrote:

:
:time for AI artifical intelliogence explorers, first on moon the to
:mars and beyond.
:
:costs far less, little life support type items needed.
:
:advances artifical intelligence and robotics a lot
:
:no one dies when lava tube collapses
:

And all you need is unobtainium and a century of development.

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
�only stupid."
� � � � � � � � � � � � � � -- Heinrich Heine

not at all. look how far robotics have advanced in the last 20 years.

invest nasas manned shuttle budget for 5 years 25 billion and see what
occurs.

this can have other uses too like robotic AI soldiers

Top posting since Googlegroups fubars things so I can't inline post.

Yes, normally, 3 people is good. But the reality is, we all take our
chances.

I've been known to ascend out of a cave w/o my partners anywhere near by.
It's a risk, but I'm also aware of it. Everyone has different levels of
risk.

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Oct 23, 2:36 pm, Eric Chomko wrote:

Clearly, two or more people have a better chance of helping themselves
than can a single person. In fact aren't hikers and cavers encouraged
to use the buddy system when it comes to their trips? Doesn't the risk
of trouble increase drastically when people hike or cave alone?


Eric

In this case, it is assumed to be very high risk. In ordinary
circumstances, I do not go caving with less than 3 people. This is
far from ordinary and I would be willing to take that risk.



--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

I have seen how far robotics have advanced.

I still can't see an autonomous robot being useful in a lunar tube.

Hell, if we had them here on Earth they'd be used. We don't and they
aren't.


wrote in message
...
On Oct 23, 9:48?pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
" wrote:

:
:time for AI artifical intelliogence explorers, first on moon the to
:mars and beyond.
:
:costs far less, little life support type items needed.
:
:advances artifical intelligence and robotics a lot
:
:no one dies when lava tube collapses
:

And all you need is unobtainium and a century of development.

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
?only stupid."
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Heinrich Heine

not at all. look how far robotics have advanced in the last 20 years.

invest nasas manned shuttle budget for 5 years 25 billion and see what
occurs.

this can have other uses too like robotic AI soldiers

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
"Pits" found on the moon:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-the-moon.html
Opening to what seems to be a lunar lava tube has been found. it
seems to be a pit over 80 m deep.
Considering that such lunar lava tubes are probably the key to
establishing a permanent lunar base, exploration of this should be a
high priority.
How to do this on the cheap?
Back in the early Gemini program, there were plans to use Gemini as a
way to get men on the moon as early as 1966 using a single man open
cockpit lander.
http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm
A variation could be resurrected using the Falcon Dragon capsule or
the new NASA capsule launched atop either the Atlas V or the new large
SpaceX launcher.
This would be a very high risk mission with the person going from
earth to the moon and landing on the moon by himself and then
descending this deep hole by himself. The person would have to be
happy being alone for long times and comfortable descending deep pits.
PICK ME, PICK ME, I VOLUNTEER. Single handed sailor, experienced
vertical caver. This would be the ultimate caving trip, after doing
this, nothing else would ever be necessary. If things fail and death
is likely, well, just give me a small cylinder of CO. This could be
the ultimate contribution to humanity.

Eh, you don't need CO, just bleed off your CO2 at a constant rate, you'll
never notice the difference.

This got me thinking about the vertical stuff though.

On one hand, you've got the same mass, but 1/6 the weight to move up the
rope. That should make things easier.

But, you're now in a bulky space suit.

So Frogwatch, what's your vertical system of choice for a lunar cave?

I'm think Frog or Mitchell. I think trying to get in and out of ropewalker
would not be trivial while wearing a space suit.

Hmm, we should cross-post this on the NSS board.




--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

Frog watch wrote:
"Pits" found on the moon:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-the-moon.html
Opening to what seems to be a lunar lava tube has been found. it
seems to be a pit over 80 m deep.
Considering that such lunar lava tubes are probably the key to
establishing a permanent lunar base, exploration of this should be a
high priority.
How to do this on the cheap?
Back in the early Gemini program, there were plans to use Gemini as a
way to get men on the moon as early as 1966 using a single man open
cockpit lander.
http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm


Or you could just send a automated rover a lot more cheaply and quickly.

Pat

On Oct 24, 10:55*am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
" wrote:

:On Oct 23, 9:48?pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:: " wrote:

:
: :
: :time for AI artifical intelliogence explorers, first on moon the to
: :mars and beyond.
: :
: :costs far less, little life support type items needed.
: :
: :advances artifical intelligence and robotics a lot
: :
: :no one dies when lava tube collapses
: :
:
: And all you need is unobtainium and a century of development.
:
:
:not at all. look how far robotics have advanced in the last 20 years.
:
:invest nasas manned shuttle budget for 5 years 25 billion and see what
ccurs.
:

The Japanese tried this. *Got them nowhere.

:
:this can have other uses too like robotic AI soldiers
:

Yeah, sure. *All you need is unobtainium and a century of development.

--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
*truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-- Thomas Jefferson

Greg:

Probably a Frog system although I have never used mechanical
ascenders, I used prusiks exclusively even for the deep stuff, simple
is best for me. Prusiks would be difficult with gloves particulalry
with a spacesuit that doesnt bend much. This is also a strike against
the Frog system. Maybe a modified ropewalker that doesnt require deep
steps would be best.
Was thinking about the descent. I am not familiar with modern racks,
mine is an old Bluewater with 5 bars requiring control of the bars by
hand. Maybe a spool system with a hand control would work best foir
the descent.
Use 9 mm rope, probably for weight but makes me squirm thinking of it.
I once saw some PMI rope with phone conductor in it, this could be
used to keep communication.
I'd worry about the rope burying itself in the lunar dust,
particularly at any lip so I'd want a stiff pad to spread its weight.
How to rig? You'd hope for some well placed rocks but maybe they
would not be around so maybe a sort of snow anchor to hold in the
lunar dust. Perhaps a variation on a Danforth Anchor used on boats.