Lunar caving

On Oct 25, 11:43*am, Frogwatch wrote:
On Oct 25, 11:17*am, Frogwatch wrote:



On Oct 25, 2:34*am, Pat Flannery wrote:

Frogwatch wrote:
Subsurface temps on the moon are about 255K,

Although the temps are very stable year-round once you get even a little
way under the surface, what that temp is is going to vary with latitude.
It's going to be a lot colder near the poles than at the equator because
of the Sun illumination angle.

Pat

I did some caving in Belize where the caves were filled with Mayan
stuff. *It was waaaay off in the jungle but the Mayans had filled the
little nooks in the cave with little shrines around which was
scattered enormous amounts of broken pottery. *Supposedly these were
from jugs used to haul sacred water from the cave. *We saw no bones or
Pus Demons or Flying Scabs or even giant bats. *Most bats are little
and cute.

A cenote-like feature would be ideal but you have to plan for a worse
scenario.
Steel cable is very heavy and for a given diameter is less strong than
synthetic rope and far less flexible.
Reliability and complexity is the main reason I would not use the
electric winch system
This being a collapse feature, I would expect the rocks from the
collapse to be on the floor beneath the pit.
The heated walls of the lava tube would have continued to outgas long
after the lava had passed which is why I suspect we would find
condensed frozen water vapor on the walls.

My Mayan caving story:
In 1985, I went with some friends to Belize to go caving but me and a
friend hitchhiked from Belize City up to Cancun to get a flight. *We
stopped at Tulum on the coast. *Tulum consists of a very large stone
walled area with Mayan ruins and a large pyramid right on a cliff
overlooking the coast. *There are all sorts of Mexican vendors selling
tacky souvenirs and my friend bought a plaster Mayan figurine and I
did not notice him scraping it on rocks and stuff to scuff it up and
make it dirty.
On the far NE corner of the walled area is a small grotto with a pool
of water in it, irrestible for cavers. *So, we poked around in the
sides of this grotto and found we could push aside some rocks and
crawl down a tight passage into a tiny chamber that was empty. *We
came crawling out just in time for some tourists to come down to the
little grotto. *They saw us and asked if we had found anything. *Larry
got an excited look in his eyes and said "You should see it, we found
this chamber with pottery and THIS", and pulled out the figurine. *The
amazed Tourists asked "What are you going to do with it". *Larry
replied "I dunno, take it home I guess", and put it in his pack and we
walked out of the grotto to see the pyramid. *An hour or so later as
we exited the walled area, we were suddenly surrounded by police who
took us by our arms demanding "What did you take from the Cenote", all
the English they could say. *Larry reluctantly pulls out the figurine
and their eyes get very wide. *A serious "Oh ****" moment with both of
us trying to figure out how to say "joke" in Spanish as they hustled
us past the vendors toward a police car.
Dragging us down the road, we happened to pass right by the vendor who
had sold the figurine to Larry and I grabbed his shirtsleave and
pointed at the figurine being held by one of the cops. *He looked at
it and began laughing and soon all the cops were laughing and slapping
us on our backs. *We bought beer for all and went on our way.
Standing beside the road waiting for a ride, I refused to go any
further with Larry unless he got rid of the figurine so he agreed but
he had *a definite location in mind to get rid of it. *On the way to
Belize from Cancun, a local had showed us a pretty little cenote down
a tiny trail just west of the road and we convinced the driver of the
dump truck who gave us a ride to stop there to swim. *While there,
Larry stashed it beneath a rock. *I assume is is now in possession of
some collector who thinks it is very valueable.

Larry made a habit of getting us into trouble and crossing the border
from Mexico into Belize was another example. Of course all of our
caving gear was in army surplus canvas carrying bags and looked kinda
military. When one of the packs was dropped on the floor, it would
"clink' ominously from the climbing gear. All of this looked very odd
to the Belizean border guys who asked "What is this" while poking into
our caving packs. Before I could reply, Larry says, "small arms and
ammo, nothing serious". The border guy says seriously, "OK,come over
here" where they begin to dissect our packs. I'm saying to Larry,
"For once, why can't you resist stuff like that" not noticing that
Larry has taken 4 of the local limes from his pack and is peeling one
by hand right in front of the guys searching our packs. He
disgustedly pulls a piece of paper from the first lime and puts it on
the counter and starts on the second one from which he also pulls a
lime juice soaked paper saying "do all your limes have trash in
them". Meanwhile the guard is looking amazed and unfolds one of the
papers to reveal a dollar bill. I'd forgotten Larry is an amatuer
magician sleight of hand artist and he puts on a good show for them
giving each of em a couple of lime juice soaked bills and soon we are
all friends. The guards now friendly, give us a stern talk on how we
should not buy any drugs in Belize city. Once we are out of the guard
house, they take us behind the guard house and tell us where to get
the "best stuff" if we want it. I'm thinking the whole time, "Why the
hell would I need drugs on a trip like this".

Frogwatch wrote:


We saw no bones or Pus Demons or Flying Scabs or even giant bats. Most bats are little
and cute.

These things are not cute - from the Mayan descriptions of them, picture
something like a 6-8 foot tall vampire bat.

I apologize for the toppost, but I blame googlegroups.

Anyway, you have a good point about the frog system requiring knee bends,
that might not work well.

On the other hand, it's pretty simple and you could build most of it into
the suit.

I think the rope-walker, there's too many moving parts, etc. to really be
useful in a lunar environment.

I think at this point perhaps I'd go with a mitchell.

As to other comments (Pat posted several of them). Yes, you could use a
winch. But those jam, breakdown and introduce other complexities and I'd
prefer at the very least a backup system.

One problem with a winch or other system is the moving rope. Which means
you have to rig over a bipid/monopole/tripod or something to get it over the
edge. I can't imagine the life span of any static caving rope if dragged
through lunar regolith. (though that's perhaps a good research project I
should suggest to PMI. :-)

As for rigging, yes, you could almost certainly use some form of picket for
tying the rope in.

I think despite the additional weight however, some sort of high-help in the
form of a tripod/bipod would be very useful. However it also has the
drawbacks of additional mass, more complexity in setup, etc. There's a
reason cavers very rarely use them.

I'm a fan of my micro-rack, but I think a bobbin device might work best
here, if only because you can redesign it to not require a lot of gripping
strength.


(Hmm, me wonders if I can get my hands on some suit gloves and practice a
changeover. :-)

Fun topic to think about.

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...

Greg:

Probably a Frog system although I have never used mechanical
ascenders, I used prusiks exclusively even for the deep stuff, simple
is best for me. Prusiks would be difficult with gloves particulalry
with a spacesuit that doesnt bend much. This is also a strike against
the Frog system. Maybe a modified ropewalker that doesnt require deep
steps would be best.
Was thinking about the descent. I am not familiar with modern racks,
mine is an old Bluewater with 5 bars requiring control of the bars by
hand. Maybe a spool system with a hand control would work best foir
the descent.
Use 9 mm rope, probably for weight but makes me squirm thinking of it.
I once saw some PMI rope with phone conductor in it, this could be
used to keep communication.
I'd worry about the rope burying itself in the lunar dust,
particularly at any lip so I'd want a stiff pad to spread its weight.
How to rig? You'd hope for some well placed rocks but maybe they
would not be around so maybe a sort of snow anchor to hold in the
lunar dust. Perhaps a variation on a Danforth Anchor used on boats.



--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

On Oct 26, 4:37*pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
wrote:
I apologize for the toppost, but I blame googlegroups.

Anyway, you have a good point about the frog system requiring knee bends,
that might not work well.

On the other hand, it's pretty simple and you could build most of it into
the suit.

I think the rope-walker, there's too many moving parts, etc. to really be
useful in a lunar environment.

I think at this point perhaps I'd go with a mitchell.

As to other comments (Pat posted several of them). *Yes, you could use a
winch. *But those jam, breakdown and introduce other complexities and I'd
prefer at the very least a backup system.

One problem with a winch or other system is the moving rope. *Which means
you have to rig over a bipid/monopole/tripod or something to get it over the
edge. *I can't imagine the life span of any static caving rope if dragged
through lunar regolith. (though that's perhaps a good research project I
should suggest to PMI. :-)

As for rigging, yes, you could almost certainly use some form of picket for
tying the rope in.

I think despite the additional weight however, some sort of high-help in the
form of a tripod/bipod would be very useful. *However it also has the
drawbacks of additional mass, more complexity in setup, etc. *There's a
reason cavers very rarely use them.

I'm a fan of my micro-rack, but I think a bobbin device might work best
here, if only because you can redesign it to not require a lot of gripping
strength.

(Hmm, me wonders if I can get my hands on some suit gloves and practice a
changeover. :-)

Fun topic to think about.

"Frogwatch" wrote in message

...

Greg:

Probably a Frog system although I have never used mechanical
ascenders, I used prusiks exclusively even for the deep stuff, simple
is best for me. *Prusiks would be difficult with gloves particulalry
with a spacesuit that doesnt bend much. *This is also a strike against
the Frog system. *Maybe a modified ropewalker that doesnt require deep
steps would be best.
Was thinking about the descent. *I am not familiar with modern racks,
mine is an old Bluewater with 5 bars requiring control of the bars by
hand. *Maybe a spool system with a hand control would work best foir
the descent.
Use 9 mm rope, probably for weight but makes me squirm thinking of it.
I once saw some PMI rope with phone conductor in it, this could be
used to keep communication.
I'd worry about the rope burying itself in the lunar dust,
particularly at any lip so I'd want a stiff pad to spread its weight.
How to rig? *You'd hope for some well placed rocks but maybe they
would not be around so maybe a sort of snow anchor to hold in the
lunar dust. *Perhaps a variation on a Danforth Anchor used on boats.

--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

Micro-rack, hmmmm, maybe not. Remember, no convection to get rid of
heat so for a 300' drop you might want big bars.
BTW Greg, My old bars are Al and people do not like them cuz they
discolor rope (uh.......its going in a cave and people worry about
discoloration?) so people use Stainless bars. Sooooooooo........why
not hollow Al bars with a 1 mm thick layer of electroplated Ni? That
way you have the thermal advantage of Al and the hardness of Ni.