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The round and rotating Earth



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 28th 10, 04:11 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default The round and rotating Earth

The Earth completes a full rotation in 24 hours or rotates through its
equatorial circumference at a rate of 15 degrees/1037.5 miles per hour
and an entire 24,901 mile circumference in 24 hours,it is a simple
fact of the dimensions and rotational characteristics of our planet
and if we care enough about this planet then people must begin to
accept these facts.

The minor problem of empiricists not comprehending their own system
pales in comparison to the situation where it is now even a struggle
to confirm that the Earth is round and rotating using cause and effect
and with all the values attached so surely somebody else has a sense
that a descent to such an intellectual standard is the worst possible
scenario regardless of who is offended.It is not so much an
astronomical problem as a struggle to set a standard of intelligence
at the lowest possible rung and having expressed dismay that there is
no sense of a fight,excitement or some indication that there actually
is a crisis that goes way become the topic itself ,I refuse to believe
that people would knowingly accept an embarrassing error rather than
deal with it regardless of what position they took previously.

It is though people are asleep or just can't get their heads around
the loss of basic planetary facts and much of it is centered within a
short period of time in the late 17th century.Rather than jump to the
defense of Isaac,empiricists are asked to consider the actual meaning
of absolute/relative time as it applies to Flamsteed's conclusion for
daily rotation using circumpolar motion (fixed stars) by losing not
just cause and effect but also rotational and orbital planetary
dynamics which was always contained in rotation to natural noon and
the natural inequality.

"Absolute time, in astronomy, is distinguished from relative, by the
equation or correlation of the vulgar time. For the natural days are
truly unequal, though they are commonly considered as equal and used
for a measure of time; astronomers correct this inequality for their
more accurate deducing of the celestial motions. It may be, that there
is no such thing as an equable motion, whereby time may be accurately
measured." Isaac Newton

Don't try to make sense of that statement beyond the references which
distinguish the natural noon cycle from the average 24 hour cycle
insofar as there is no external reference for daily rotation as an
independent motion,the average 24 hour day transfers to daily rotation
as a constant and reaching to fix daily rotation directly with
circumpolar motion is just pure and crude vandalism.

Is there not one individual,just one,who firmly respects the
consequences of losing information on planetary dynamics and the
terrestrial effects experienced by everyone of our race ?.This is not
a game,it is not anything other than a struggle for intelligence at a
level even I don't want to consider for behind the monstrous no center/
no circumference ideologies of big bang/black hole is a type of
mentality that no race of people should ever,ever acclaim.
  #2  
Old April 28th 10, 05:14 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Sam Wormley[_2_]
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Default The round and rotating Earth

On 4/28/10 10:11 AM, oriel36 wrote:
The Earth completes a full rotation in 24 hours or rotates through its
equatorial circumference at a rate of 15 degrees/1037.5 miles per hour
and an entire 24,901 mile circumference in 24 hours,it is a simple
fact of the dimensions and rotational characteristics of our planet
and if we care enough about this planet then people must begin to
accept these facts.


Gerald, you are fighting a loosing battle as direct observation
contradicts you, as has been pointed out many a time. With just
a few hours of sunlight left in your area, prepare to sight the
star Arcturus in the east with respect to a building, pole or tree
and start your stopwatch. Then tomorrow night stop the stop watch
when Arcturus again lines with respect to a building, pole or tree.

Do it Gerald... you don't want to be like the clergy that looked
through Galileo's telescope darkly.




  #3  
Old April 28th 10, 06:16 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Posts: 8,478
Default The round and rotating Earth

On Apr 28, 5:14*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 4/28/10 10:11 AM, oriel36 wrote:

The Earth completes a full rotation in 24 hours or rotates through its
equatorial circumference at a rate of 15 degrees/1037.5 miles per hour
and an entire 24,901 mile circumference in 24 hours,it is a simple
fact of the dimensions and rotational characteristics of our planet
and if we care enough about this planet then people must begin to
accept these facts.


* *Gerald, you are fighting a loosing battle as direct observation
* *contradicts you, as has been pointed out many a time.With just
* *a few hours of sunlight left in your area, prepare to sight the
* *star Arcturus in the east with respect to a building, pole or tree
* *and start your stopwatch. Then tomorrow night stop the stop watch
* *when Arcturus again lines with respect to a building, pole or tree..


People have another choice,this time using cause and effect,where
slower rotational speeds towards the geographical poles correlate
directly with twilight lengths at different latitudes and they would
have to be ashamed of themselves for taking not part in what is a
struggle to maintain the lowest rung in the ladder of
intelligence.There is nothing,absolutely nothing that is not known of
the basic facts and dimensions of our planet where its equatorial
speed is 1037.5 miles per hour and turning through its full 24,901
mile equatorial circumference in 24 hours.

I would have always tried to tempt empiricists into taking notice of
their own system,something they have never understood, by going
through the elaborate and distorted scheme Newton devised, even tried
to shame what would be normally intelligent people into looking at the
cause and effect of a round and rotating Earth in terms of the
integral components of daylight/darkness and the transition through
the circle of illumination via a round and rotating Earth and I never
consider losing this battle for the alternative is
horrendous.Normally,intelligent people cannot stand pretense but your
empirical pretense begins at such a ridiculous level where not even
the explanations for the daylight/darkness and twilight lengths are
safe and that has to mean something to people,no matter how
indifferent they appear to be.It is not about finding agreement with
me at this level ,historically and technically,the principles which
link planetary geography with the average 24 hour day organised around
the imaginary lines of longitude and so what if it takes a small
effort to work out where the average day comes from and how it
transfers to rotation as a constant,it retains all planetary facts on
rotation,dimensions and all the ancillary function for terrestrial
effects.

Again,how can an entire race of people lose the basic planetary facts
surrounding planetary dimensions,rotation period,cause and effect for
even though we inherited the mess and it is nobody's fault here,it
does not mean we must continue to suffer this crude embarrassment.







* *Do it Gerald... you don't want to be like the clergy that looked
* *through Galileo's telescope darkly.


  #4  
Old April 28th 10, 06:40 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Posts: 8,478
Default The round and rotating Earth

On Apr 28, 5:14*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 4/28/10 10:11 AM, oriel36 wrote:

The Earth completes a full rotation in 24 hours or rotates through its
equatorial circumference at a rate of 15 degrees/1037.5 miles per hour
and an entire 24,901 mile circumference in 24 hours,it is a simple
fact of the dimensions and rotational characteristics of our planet
and if we care enough about this planet then people must begin to
accept these facts.


* *Gerald, you are fighting a loosing battle as direct observation
* *contradicts you, as has been pointed out many a time. With just
* *a few hours of sunlight left in your area, prepare to sight the
* *star Arcturus in the east with respect to a building, pole or tree
* *and start your stopwatch. Then tomorrow night stop the stop watch
* *when Arcturus again lines with respect to a building, pole or tree..

* *Do it Gerald... you don't want to be like the clergy that looked
* *through Galileo's telescope darkly.


You have convinced yourselves that Galileo is one of your own even
though none of you affirm the retrograde resolution through the
Earth's own orbital motion ,something that Galileo understood while
you dither around with an absolute space/hypothetical observer on the
Sun junk of Newton and this tells me a lot about people here,the
attempt to diminish Christianity through denominational Christianity
is done with the same efficiency as the other holocaust,not because of
a small number of empiricists creating havoc with their predictions/
modelling agendas but the larger community which does not want to
think for itself.You could do none of it without their support and
that is why I have had to turn to holocaust literature to discover why
this living nightmare is happening -

"The existing explanations for the ease with which the Nazis conducted
their hellish program are varied, but to a greater or lesser degree
almost all scholarly and popular interpretations of the Holocaust
incorporate among their premises that it was aberrational, covert and
uniquely efficient. The slaughter is said to have expressed the will
of a small circle of lunatic Nazi and not the will of the German
people, who were antisemetic but not murderously so. It is said that
the killing was conducted out of the sight of the nation and with
industrial efficiency by a relatively small number of people insane
with ideology. The effect of these premises is to make the Holocaust a
political and not a social event, with the happy consequence that
responsibility for it rests squarely on a small number of identifiable
political and military operatives and not on the German nation as a
whole.
In the years since the war a great deal of intellectual firepower has
been devoted to examining these premises, and and hopeful scholars
have found some evidence in support for each of them. Goldhagen, an
assistant professor government and social studies at Harvard, will
have none of it."

http://www.spectacle.org/696/goldhag.html

Somebody has to take responsibility for the loss of basic planetary
facts that form the bedrock of much of what is good and intelligent
about Western civilization and it should not come down to one person
continually refreshing the arguments,some old some new,in order to
recover a sense of dignity to this wayward community.

  #5  
Old April 28th 10, 07:51 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Posts: 3,068
Default The round and rotating Earth

On Apr 28, 10:40*am, oriel36 wrote:

You have convinced yourselves that Galileo is one of your own *even
though none of you affirm the retrograde resolution *through the
Earth's own orbital motion ,something that Galileo understood while
you dither around with an absolute space/hypothetical observer on the
Sun junk of Newton


What in the world are you talking about? EVERYONE here understands
that retrograde motion is resolved once you understand that it is only
an apparent motion due to Earth's own orbital motion, combined with
the orbital motion of the other planets. This has NEVER been in
dispute. From another frame of reference, however, as from high above
or far below the solar system, you would see no retrogrades, you would
only note that all planets go round and round the sun in the same
direction, each at their own rate. Or, as Newton so clearly stated, if
you were able to stand on the sun, you would not see retrogrades from
there, either, and it has nothing to do with 'absolute space'.

Somebody has to take responsibility for the loss of basic planetary
facts that form the bedrock of much of what is good and intelligent
about Western civilization and it should not come down to one person
continually refreshing the arguments,some old some new,in order to
recover a sense of dignity to this wayward community.


I don't think we need to worry about 'one person' changing history,
especially when that person has a practically non -existent grasp of
very basic astrophysical principles, even though small children can be
easily made to understand them.

Unless and until you can figure out how to actually learn and
understand something new, and stop being so obtuse, you are doomed to
wallow in your self-made swamp of ineffectual facts and hollow
conceptions, and that is too bad, because you could learn a lot here.

"Much learning does not teach understanding."
- Heraclitus

"Life is a learning experience, only if you learn."
- Yogi Berra

\Paul the Nuisance, who gets frustrated when certain folks can't grasp
simple concepts...

  #6  
Old May 1st 10, 02:30 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
OG
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Posts: 780
Default The round and rotating Earth


"oriel36" wrote in message
...
The Earth completes a full rotation in 24 hours


With respect to what?
The Moon
The Sun
The local Stars
The Galaxy
The Universe
what?

  #7  
Old May 1st 10, 03:54 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Posts: 3,068
Default The round and rotating Earth

On Apr 30, 6:30*pm, "OG" wrote:
"oriel36" wrote in message

...

The Earth completes a full rotation in 24 hours


With respect to what?
The Moon
The Sun
The local Stars
The Galaxy
The Universe
what?


The phrase "with respect to" has absolutely no meaning to Oriel, and
THAT'S THE WHOLE PROBLEM. If he had even an inkling about frames of
reference, things would be a lot different for him, and most of his
goofy "theories" would just evaporate.

Unfortunately, Oriel has shown no ability to learn anything here, or
anywhere else, for that matter, and that is a shame. It is frustrating
to read so many really good explanations from many very knowledgeable
people here about so many great topics (I know I learn a lot), only to
have pompous Oriel come strutting in with his snooty holier-then-thou
attitude, spewing the same old drivel, day after day, hijacking thread
after thread, and basically claiming that no one but himself has any
idea about astronomy, geology, climatology, anthropology, and just
about any other "ology" that you can think of.

I've never known anyone who could be so consistently wrong and yet so
consistently sure of himself. I applaud his self-confidence on the one
hand, but on the other hand there is something very wrong with someone
who puts himself above virtually every astronomer on the planet, alive
or dead, and refers to almost everyone here as unintelligent and/or a
nuisance.

\Paul A
  #8  
Old May 1st 10, 08:09 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Posts: 8,478
Default The round and rotating Earth

On May 1, 2:30*am, "OG" wrote:
"oriel36" wrote in message

...

The Earth completes a full rotation in 24 hours


With respect to what?
The Moon
The Sun
The local Stars
The Galaxy
The Universe
what?


It takes nothing more than working with basic planetary dimensions and
rotational characteristics to explain twilight length variations at
different latitudes and then you have your answer,the most fundamental
astronomical fact is that we experience the daylight/darkness cycle
due to rotation and the roundness of the Earth organised around the
Earth's rotational characteristics of equator and poles generate
variations in twilight lengths as longer twilights correlate to slower
rotational speeds towards the poles from a maximum equatorial speed of
1037.5 miles per hour.It is something of a 21st century experience in
that people now travel great latitudinal distances within in a short
period of time,from Northern to Southern Europe or Alaska down to
California and they will notice the remarkable differences in the
shift from daylight to darkness when coming from Northern latitudes so
people should briefly be ashamed of themselves for trying to ignore
the experience and what causes it.

The single daylight/darkness cycle at the geographical poles is
special for the simple reason that it does not arise from daily
rotation but from the orbital motion of the Earth,the fact that the
Earth does not keep the same orbital face to the Sun but turns through
360 degree and takes a complete annual orbit to do it hence twilight
at the geographical poles around the orbital points of the
equinoxes.It is never a matter of having to find agreement with
me,just that people for themselves will come to like the idea that our
planet and all planets orbit the central Sun in a specific way
and ,when allied with daily rotation and its characteristics,causes
the seasons and the natural noon cycles to vary.

I have explained thousands of times that the words 'average' and
'constant' are interchangeable and how our astronomical ancestors
exploited,albeit in a productive way,the distinction which separates
the natural noon cycle from the 24 hour cycle,for the procedure which
gives us equable hours,minutes and seconds derived from the 24 hour
average (' equable' too is interchangeable with 'constant' ) and
allows these averages to translate into the progression of days such
as Monday into Tuesday into Wednesday and so on (I really wish I
didn't have to do this !) serves to transfer this average cycle to
constant rotation while knowing that the reference for the daily cycle
shows an inequality.As far as I know,Gemma Frissius was either the
first or one of the first to figure out that clocks can determine
location on the planet based on planetary dimensions organised around
the Earth's daily rotational characteristics.I will grant that this
area can be complicated but here too there is nothing overly difficult
with familiarity as opposed to that rude idea that circumpolar motion
represents rotation through 360 degrees,somehow you ignore that a
crude conclusion such as 'sidereal time' is mistaken for a simple
conclusion.

I don't want people to agree with me,I want them to provide a clearer
explanation with all the 21st century resources available to explain
things such as how twilight lengths vary with latitude,the difference
between global climate and hemispherical weather patterns of Spring/
Summer/Fall/Winter,the influence of rotation of evolutionary geology
and many,many more things that are there to be considered and argued
over.You can stick with daily rotation directly to circumpolar motion
and celestial sphere geometry,that will get you 'time travel' and the
ridiculous 'no center/no circumference' ideologies but people can do
far better than this.No more than people should hold anything against
me, and goodness knows I sometimes cringe when I come across my old
postings,neither do I hold anything against those who previously
believed in things they would not normally do but this being the
usenet with all its advantages and disadvantages,it is time to place
some of these things in a permanent setting and the simple proof for a
round and rotating Earth in 24 hours is a start,after that,it would be
interesting to see things evolve in a productive way for a change.



  #9  
Old May 1st 10, 08:35 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Posts: 7,018
Default The round and rotating Earth

On May 1, 1:09*am, oriel36 wrote:

I have explained thousands of times that the words 'average' and
'constant' are interchangeable


And, there you are. They are NOT.

With respect to the Sun, the Earth rotates at an average of once every
24 hours. Because the Earth's rotation is not in the plane of the
ecliptic, but inclined to it by an angle of about 23 1/2 degrees, and
because it orbits the Sun in an ellipse following Kepler's laws, not
in a perfect circle at uniform speed, the return of the Sun to the
meridian at any one location does not quite take place at a constant
period of 24 hours, but rather is affected by the Equation of Time.

An average, but not a constant.

But with respect to the fixed stars - except for very small and subtle
effects due to seasonal changes in the winds, which are explained by
the conservation of angular momentum - the return of a star to the
meridian takes place at a constant 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4 seconds.

A constant, not merely an average.

Something that actually takes place every 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4
seconds.

Something that we might wish would take place every 24 hours, because
life would be simpler, but actually over the course of a year takes
place about 15 minutes earlier or later compared to the average time
it takes place.

Which one is simpler and more uniform? Which one is more basic, and
makes more sense for using to understand planetary dynamics?

Obviously, the former, not the latter. No matter how much you, with
your wishful thinking, try to say it is the other way around.

Apparently because we should just admire the beauty of the Universe,
and not make any effort trying to break down planetary motions into
their components so we can really understand them, and apply
mathematics to them.

An intellectual disaster that guides astronomers away from productive
channels of work? Don't blame Newton and Flamsteed. You're the one
doing his best to bring one about.

And your efforts are pathetic because no one is fooled. This is why I,
and others, plead and beg with you to instead turn some of your
efforts into examining why you may be wrong, and being willing to
think and to learn. You are not trying to cause harm; you genuinely
believe you are the one voice speaking out for truth in astronomy.
This is tragic, even if you are the only one hurt by the tragedy.

John Savard
  #10  
Old May 1st 10, 03:49 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Sam Wormley[_2_]
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Posts: 3,966
Default The round and rotating Earth

On 5/1/10 2:09 AM, oriel36 wrote:
It takes nothing more than working with basic planetary dimensions and
rotational characteristics to explain twilight length variations at
different latitudes and then you have your answer,the most fundamental
astronomical fact is that we experience the daylight/darkness cycle
due to rotation and the roundness of the Earth organised around the
Earth's rotational characteristics of equator and poles generate
variations in twilight lengths as longer twilights correlate to slower
rotational speeds towards the poles from a maximum equatorial speed of
1037.5 miles per hour.



I would be interesting to hear your explanation of twilight length
on a planet in a two sun system.

The angle that the ecliptic makes with the horizon, does correlate
with the lengths of civil, nautical and astronomical twilight for
any given location, Gerald.

I think you should download a free planetarium program and play
with it, then go outside and observe reality directly. Do you need
a real amateur astronomer to assist you?
 




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