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MSNBC: "Space station mission opposed"



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 24th 03, 10:07 AM
Derek Lyons
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Default MSNBC: "Space station mission opposed"

"James Oberg" wrote:
There doesn't appear to be ANY real medical plan of how to detect
contamination levels based on crew medical symptoms (sense of smell/taste,
headache, itchiness, vision problems, breathing difficulties, etc. --


Speaking as one who has lived in such an enviroment, you don't need a
damm plan, just situational awareness.

they just rely on the 'medical judgment' of the Flight Surgeon -- who is often a
future astronaut-wannabe) or use such detection to make the choice to shut
down the station.


While we did have an atmosphere monitoring program that covered the
usual suspects, we handled unusual cases very simply. If the Doc
started to note a cluster of unusual complaints, we went into
breathing masks and headed for the roof to ventilate overboard. The
whole 'plan' covered a single sheet of ordinary paper.

D.
--
The STS-107 Columbia Loss FAQ can be found
at the following URLs:

Text-Only Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq.html

Enhanced HTML Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq_x.html

Corrections, comments, and additions should be
e-mailed to , as well as posted to
sci.space.history and sci.space.shuttle for
discussion.
  #12  
Old October 24th 03, 01:41 PM
Hallerb
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Default MSNBC: "Space station mission opposed"

MSNBC: "Space station mission opposed"

Lets hope we arent back here discussing the warning signs that were missed
before the station and crew were lost. Just like Challenger and Columbia ISS
could be next on the list.

By the way SMELL is useless in a stinky envirmonment. Eventually you adjust and
cant detect off odors.

What NASA flight directors decided to keep it manned?

We can put together a nasa wall of shame.

Mullroy, Ham, Dittmore, and the newbies

When Jim Oberg is alamed I am freaking out!
  #13  
Old October 24th 03, 02:11 PM
Craig Fink
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Default MSNBC: "Space station mission opposed"

Hallerb wrote:

MSNBC: "Space station mission opposed"


Lets hope we arent back here discussing the warning signs that were missed
before the station and crew were lost. Just like Challenger and Columbia
ISS could be next on the list.

By the way SMELL is useless in a stinky envirmonment. Eventually you
adjust and cant detect off odors.

What NASA flight directors decided to keep it manned?


Smell fatigues very quickly, but the space station is not that small a
volume. If one module stinks every time they enter it, there is a problem
in that module. But the fatigue goes away when they are in a different
module.

Also, isn't it an "international" space station. If the Russian's threshold
of pain is higher than the US threshold of pain, what happens? The US
determines it's unsafe, while the Russians don't have a problem. Does the
US have some sort of veto power to tell the Russians they can't man the
space station because we think it's unsafe? What if the Russians choose to
go anyway, even over the objections raised by the US that it is unsafe? How
about the Spanish guy? What if his government decides it's also safe?

Now the US would be in a position of taking our astronaut off the flight,
while the Russians have an empty seat to fill. Not a pretty picture.

The threshold of pain must be somewhere inbetween.

Craig Fink
  #14  
Old October 24th 03, 03:30 PM
Hallerb
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Default MSNBC: "Space station mission opposed"


Smell fatigues very quickly, but the space station is not that small a
volume. If one module stinks every time they enter it, there is a problem


The dont keep the doors shut between modules. My understanding is the air flows
between modules all the time for safety/

So the bad module isnt helpful
  #15  
Old October 24th 03, 03:39 PM
Chuck Stewart
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Default MSNBC: "Space station mission opposed"

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:07:51 +0000, Derek Lyons wrote:

While we did have an atmosphere monitoring program that covered the usual
suspects, we handled unusual cases very simply. If the Doc started to
note a cluster of unusual complaints, we went into breathing masks and
headed for the roof to ventilate overboard. The whole 'plan' covered a
single sheet of ordinary paper.


So...

(yeah, you can see it coming a mile away...)

ISS just needs to ventilate overboard in case of toxicity
problems?

.... After it heads for the basement, of course...

D.


Use Hello Kitty respirators to raise ISS morale!

  #16  
Old October 24th 03, 08:50 PM
Derek Lyons
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Default MSNBC: "Space station mission opposed"

Caretaker wrote:
In a submarine, do they monitor crewmembers to the same extent that they do on
ISS ?


No. But then submarine crew do not also double as payload as the ISS
crew does.

D.
--
The STS-107 Columbia Loss FAQ can be found
at the following URLs:

Text-Only Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq.html

Enhanced HTML Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq_x.html

Corrections, comments, and additions should be
e-mailed to , as well as posted to
sci.space.history and sci.space.shuttle for
discussion.
  #18  
Old October 24th 03, 09:01 PM
Q
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Default MSNBC: "Space station mission opposed"

Hallerb wrote:
By the way SMELL is useless in a stinky envirmonment. Eventually you adjust and
cant detect off odors.


No. You get used to odours that are continuous. But if some new odour pops up,
you notice it.

And I am not worried about the survival of the crew. Unlike Columbia, the crew
can always bail and return to earth safely if they feel the stayion has become
unsafe. They can always put on masks, or even EVA suits and move to the area
generating the gas/smell/particles and try to shut off the deffective
component or fix the problem.


And if you have an explosion of ammonia or whatever other toxic gas that
wouldn't give the crew any time to react, then no amount of monitoring
equipment would have saved the day. The monitoring equipment is there to
detect slow events which usually give the crew plenty of time to react.

Also, the station has been broken in already and there is already plenty of
knowledge on how it performs, what commonly breaks, what doesn't. The mistake
in the CO2 filters regenerating unit in Quest probably won't happen again.
  #19  
Old October 24th 03, 09:10 PM
Q
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Default MSNBC: "Space station mission opposed"

Derek Lyons wrote:
In a submarine, do they monitor crewmembers to the same extent that they do on
ISS ?


No. But then submarine crew do not also double as payload as the ISS
crew does.


Then, they should view this period as a different experiment. Instead of
constantly dictating and monitoring ever crew member's movements, let thenm
use their own judgement, let them exercise the way they think is good, and
then, at the end of the period, compare the results.

When folks start to go to Mars, you'll have to give crewmembers a much greater
autonomy and won't be able to monitor their every activities.

Consider Apollo 13 (basing myself on the movie, assuming that particular
passage is not too inacurate). Did the removal of all the senors from the
astronauts's bodies in any way jeoperdize their lives ?

(And I have to ask, if those sensors were still active, at a time where there
was an urgent need to conserve any power, didn't leaving those sensors on
actually jeoperdize their life by reducing the chances they would make it to
earth ?)

And a question not answered yet: how much air monitoring equipment is present
and still functioning in the russian segment ? It might not be as fancy or
accurate as that on the USA segment, but if it gives enough information to
detect serious problems, isn't that sufficient ?

Consider the air you breathe when you walk in manhattan, or what you breathen
in crowded subways/trains. People survive this. NASA seems to underestimate
the human body's capabilities.
  #20  
Old October 24th 03, 09:18 PM
Q
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Default MSNBC: "Space station mission opposed"

Derek Lyons wrote:
A little whiff of smoke? We certainly smelled that, and *everyone*
who smelled it starting looking for the source.


However, a cook in a bakery will stop noticing the smell of fresh bread
because it is constantly there. However, a new smell in his bakery will be noticed.

The danger with using noses on the ISS is with a very slowly rising smell.
Crewmembers may adapt and never really notice it.

However, because of the different modules, especially the different russian
and american segments, it is unlikely that a smell would appear evenly
instantly. Crew members would notice the smell being stronger in one area as
they move around.

However, this does not solve the potential problem of a leak occuring during
sleeping periods. The station "guards" in the ground won't be able to "smell"
those and awaken the crew. So in the morning, when they wake up, the crew may
have to deal with a more serious problem than if the leak had been detected
right away.

On the other hand, leaks are probably going to be noticed on the ground due to
whatever machine generating the leak not performing nominally. Consider the
lete of detailed information they get about the station, a level high enough
that they decided something was wrong with the motor that turns the solar
arrays just by looking at its power consumption.
 




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