" Forbidden Planet" observation

On Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:45:15 -0800, Pat Flannery
wrote:

Turner Classic Movies is running 1956's "Forbidden Planet" at the
moment; anyone note something odd about this film's premise?
Despite being filmed only a year before Sputnik, in the introduction
they state that people didn't even land on the Moon till near the end of
the 21st century.
That seems a pretty pessimistic view of how rocket technology would
develop in the future, given the very rapid progress that aerospace
technology was undergoing at the time it was made.

Pat

Looks like it will be that long before we get BACK to the moon. We
still know nothing about the moon to speak of. It's as if we took 6
gallon jugs of water, 3 from the Atlantic and 3 from the Pacific, and
claim that we have now explored the oceans sufficiently.

"land on the Moon till near the end of
the 21st century.
That seems a pretty pessimistic view of how rocket technology would
develop in the future, given the very rapid progress that aerospace
technology was undergoing at the time it was made.

Maybe not given the time. When I was in 4th grade and starting to really get
into the Winston Science Fiction series, I remember an article where "Great
Noble Prize Scientists" - note scientists that knew nothing about
engineering but had a good pedegree in other areas, thought that we may have
a pilot in orbit within 50 years and 100 to 150 years before we'd land on
the moon. I was totally disappointed - well by the time I graduated college
I got to work on the LM Program at Grumman for the last 5 years including
the first lander. I missed the first 5 years of the program.

But given folks making statements like that the into to the movie might have
been correct given the times and high standard of the movie. Don't listen to
von Braun - listen to a molecular chemist who wouldn't know a rocket from a
rocking chair.

This seems to be a standard - they get something like the Augustine
Committee that knows nothing of international politics and the position of
the US as a world leader and they recommend looking at a mathematical point
in space, and the idiots in Washington buy in as long as it's high in Pork.


Val
Kraut

"
How accurate was "From The Earth To The Moon" regarding the LEM
development? The "Spider" episode was my favorite of the whole series,
particularly for the use of "The Great Escape" music as Grumman finds out
that the contract they've won is going to be nowhere near as easy to
fulfill as they thought. :-D
I always got a kick out of the fact that "The Ironworks" was chosen to
build something about as sturdy as an aluminum beer can.

I have to go back and look at that one. The first big surprise to the LEM
engineering team was that they still had a lot of analysis and design to do
even after having the winning design. There were four major configurations
leading to the final design, five fixed landing gear, four large windows,
crew seats, forward docking hatch, a knotted rope to reach the surface,
aluminum whipple shields etc that finally evolved into the actual lander.
Many test articles, many design trades that lead to the final lander. And
the landers were still evolving from LM-3 through LM-7. Then the extended
stay LM-10 and sub.

The tradition of the Iron works was the planes got shot up and still brought
their pilots home. The LM had a better track record then the CSM. All
successful missions - and the LM-7 lifeboat. The LM-7 crew came back and
walked through the plants shaking hands will the entire engineering staff. I
think the Iron Works is more than a sturdy vehicle - but a sturdy system
that will function with necessary backups to assure the crew survives. There
was a tremdous committment on the part of the engineering staff that their
component would not loose an astronaut. Many of those guys were young
graduates then and who recently got to contribute to the NGC Altair effort -
and that spirit still survives.


Val Kraut

Turner Classic Movies is running 1956's "Forbidden Planet" at the
moment; anyone note something odd about this film's premise?
Despite being filmed only a year before Sputnik, in the introduction
they state that people didn't even land on the Moon till near the end of
the 21st century.
That seems a pretty pessimistic view of how rocket technology would
develop in the future, given the very rapid progress that aerospace
technology was undergoing at the time it was made.

Pat

Probably true - I have to watch it again. The urban legend on the seats was
some engineers argued the seats would allow the astronauts to survive a
crash landing. The astronaut take was - and then we wait for air sea rescue.

There were two weight reduction efforts - SWIP and Scrape. SWIP was the
Super Weight Reduction Program. This looked for big design changes like
removeing the anti slosh baffles from fuel tanks. Scrape was what it sounds
like. Scraping small portions off of detailed parts to achieve a net savings
on the total vehicle. The story with that was Arnold Wittiger going into
Kelly's office complaining that each LEM part took so much hand owrk that
they weren't getting the parts out of the shop on an acceptable schedule.
The stiffiners on the Descnet Module were chemically milled to remove
thoousands of an inch to reduce weight - pretty extreme



Val Kraut

On 10/7/2010 7:06 PM, Val Kraut wrote:

Maybe not given the time. When I was in 4th grade and starting to really get
into the Winston Science Fiction series, I remember an article where "Great
Noble Prize Scientists" - note scientists that knew nothing about
engineering but had a good pedegree in other areas, thought that we may have
a pilot in orbit within 50 years and 100 to 150 years before we'd land on
the moon. I was totally disappointed - well by the time I graduated college
I got to work on the LM Program at Grumman for the last 5 years including
the first lander. I missed the first 5 years of the program.

How accurate was "From The Earth To The Moon" regarding the LEM
development? The "Spider" episode was my favorite of the whole series,
particularly for the use of "The Great Escape" music as Grumman finds
out that the contract they've won is going to be nowhere near as easy to
fulfill as they thought. :-D
I always got a kick out of the fact that "The Ironworks" was chosen to
build something about as sturdy as an aluminum beer can.

Pat

On 10/7/2010 8:14 PM, Val Kraut wrote:

build something about as sturdy as an aluminum beer can.

I have to go back and look at that one. The first big surprise to the LEM
engineering team was that they still had a lot of analysis and design to do
even after having the winning design. There were four major configurations
leading to the final design, five fixed landing gear, four large windows,
crew seats, forward docking hatch, a knotted rope to reach the surface,
aluminum whipple shields etc that finally evolved into the actual lander.
Many test articles, many design trades that lead to the final lander. And
the landers were still evolving from LM-3 through LM-7. Then the extended
stay LM-10 and sub.

One of the big things in the episode iws trying to cut weight any way
possible. So those seats the two crew were going to sit in and the front
docking collar go bye-bye, and the crew end up standing up during the
landing.
The funniest scenes are the constant problems with getting the
electrical systems of the LEM* to work right.
They finally think they have everything ready to go in that regard, send
two test crew into their engineering prototype, hit the main power
supply switch...and end up in complete darkness around half a second
later as the whole kit-and-caboodle immediately shuts down. :-D
Combined with the music, that's an hilarious scene.


*...and to me, it's always going to be a LEM, not a LM.

Pat

On 10/7/2010 8:54 PM, Val Kraut wrote:
Probably true - I have to watch it again. The urban legend on the seats was
some engineers argued the seats would allow the astronauts to survive a
crash landing. The astronaut take was - and then we wait for air sea rescue.

What I always got a kick out of in the removal of the seats was what
they ended up with was something pretty close to the fabric net cages
that were used for the crew of Cavor's Moon sphere in the movie "First
Men In The Moon".
NASA didn't have any animation ready to show the press how the LOR
concept was going to work when they first made the firm decision to use
that technique for Apollo, so showed them the footage from the opening
of that movie to get the idea across:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8NMYNLc0T8
The overall design of the lander owes a lot to the direct-descent
version of Apollo.

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:
The funniest scenes are the constant problems with getting the
electrical systems of the LEM* to work right.
They finally think they have everything ready to go in that regard,
send two test crew into their engineering prototype, hit the main
power supply switch...and end up in complete darkness around half a
second later as the whole kit-and-caboodle immediately shuts down. :-D
Combined with the music, that's an hilarious scene.

Actually the scene I love (because I've had it happen to me) is when they're
going around the table to make sure everything is on schedule and every
department head is saying, "yes" until the last guy who now is thoroughly
embarrassed and sheeplishly admits he's behind schedule. Next thing you
know all the other department heads look relived and finally admit that
yeah, they could use another day, or two, or a week, etc.

Quite funny and true.



*...and to me, it's always going to be a LEM, not a LM.

Pat

--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

On 10/8/2010 3:49 AM, Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:

Actually the scene I love (because I've had it happen to me) is when they're
going around the table to make sure everything is on schedule and every
department head is saying, "yes" until the last guy who now is thoroughly
embarrassed and sheeplishly admits he's behind schedule. Next thing you
know all the other department heads look relived and finally admit that
yeah, they could use another day, or two, or a week, etc.

Quite funny and true.

That episode is an absolute treasure, isn't it?
"What's this one going to do?"
"This one is going to land on the Moon..."
Damn, right. :-)

Pat