Once and for all...are humans or robots better for Mars?

On Jul 1, 6:47*am, bob haller wrote:
The terrorist now know what a great target a nuke plant with elevated
waste core storage pools are. A business sized jet loaded with
explosives could take out a pools cooling system.

or worse a systamatic attack on the nations power grid.nuke plants are
vulnerable to power losses. even a attempted attack would likely cause
chaos in our country even if the nuke plants remained safe

Modern power grids are kind of auto-protect, and most cities have at
least two feeders plus increasingly independent backup energy in order
to keep basic services going for at least several hours or even a few
days.

However, it really doesn't require all that much Acetone Peroxide to
created to total mess, and if that mess is situated upwind of any
significant population is where the damages from a conventional
reactor with tonnes of spent fuel gets out of hand very quickly.
Chemical plants of most any kind are going to be an easier target,
although just setting fires is enough to drain all available resources
and bring most everything to a halt.

If given a choice between uranium or thorium, a terrorist would be
kinda dumbfounded at how little damage a broken thorium reactor
represents, even if that thorium reactor was in the center of town.

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On Jul 1, 1:58*pm, bob haller wrote:
Suit filed to seek decommissioning of Hamaoka reactors
SHIZUOKA, Japan, July 1, Kyodo

A group of residents of Shizuoka Prefecture filed a lawsuit Friday to
seek the decommissioning of the reactors at the Hamaoka nuclear power
plant for safety reasons, following their suspension at a government
request due to their location on a major fault zone.

Amid a spread of antinuclear movements sparked by the crisis at the
crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, the lawsuit is the
first of a series of similar suits expected to be filed en masse at
district courts nationwide in the fall to seek to a halt to nuclear
plants.

Friday's complaint filed with the Shizuoka District Court said Chubu
Electric Power Co. should decommission the Nos. 3 to 5 reactors,
arguing they are at great risk of being hit by a major earthquake with
subsequent tsunami and ground liquefaction, and cannot be made safe.

Perhaps instead they should place a thorium reactor in the center of
every major city, and call it good.

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Modern power grids are kind of auto-protect, and most cities have at
least two feeders plus increasingly independent backup energy in order
to keep basic services going for at least several hours or even a few
days.


10 years ago that was likely true, but in these modern days of just in
time, and cutting costs by minimizing excess capacity a attack of any
type could devastate our nation. china and others have probed our
national power grids controls. sending the proper commend by internet
could order power plant generators to overspeed and destroy
themselves. worse theres at least a 6 month lead time for replacement
generators and the US no longer has the ability to manufacturer them.
like so many other products today they are imported...... congress has
held hearings on this, power generation executives promised to fix
things, but a year later hadnt.

now imagine the power grid being taken off line in either mid summer
or mid winter. with power off for weeks or longer..

people could freeze to death, or die from lack of AC, everything would
be disrupted including water supplies, food distribution, etc etc. the
nations economy would freeze..... raw sewage contaminating everything

and backup nuke power stations have limited generator run times, they
cant go forever withot diesel fuel replinshement.. needed not only to
control reactors but waste core storage pools

I am surprised terrorists havent flown bomb laden planes into oil
refernies.

perhaps their home countries need the oil revenue desperately?

One of the most lethal patches of ground in North America is located
in the backwoods of North Carolina, where Shearon Harris nuclear plant
is housed and owned by Progress Energy. The plant contains the largest
radioactive waste storage pools in the country. It is not just a
nuclear-power-generating station, but also a repository for highly
radioactive spent fuel rods from two other nuclear plants. The spent
fuel rods are transported by rail and stored in four densely packed
pools filled with circulating cold water to keep the waste from
heating. The Department of Homeland Security has marked Shearon Harris
as one of the most vulnerable terrorist targets in the nation.

The threat exists, however, without the speculation of terrorist
attack. Should the cooling system malfunction, the resulting fire
would be virtually unquenchable and could trigger a nuclear meltdown,
putting more than two hundred million residents of this rapidly
growing section of North Carolina in extreme peril. A recent study by
Brookhaven Labs estimates that a pool fire could cause 140,000
cancers, contaminate thousands of square miles of land, and cause over
$500 billion in off-site property damage.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) has estimated that there is a
1:100 chance of pool fire happening under the best of scenarios. And
the dossier on the Shearon Harris plant is far from the best.
In 1999 the plant experienced four emergency shutdowns. A few months
later, in April 2000, the plant’s safety monitoring system, designed
to provide early warning of a serious emergency, failed. And it wasn’t
the first time. Indeed, the emergency warning system at Shearon Harris
has failed fifteen times since the plant opened in 1987.

In 2002 the NRC put the plant on notice for nine unresolved safety
issues detected during a fire prevention inspection by NRC
investigators. When the NRC returned to the plant a few months later
for reinspection, it determined that the corrective actions were “not
acceptable.” Between January and July of 2002, Harris plant managers
were forced to manually shut down the reactors four times.
The problems continue with chilling regularity. In the spring of 2003
there were four emergency shutdowns of the plant, including three over
a four-day period. One of the incidents occurred when the reactor core
failed to cool down during a refueling operation while the reactor
dome was off of the plant—a potentially catastrophic series of
circumstances.

Between 1999 and 2003, there were twelve major problems requiring the
shutdown of the plant. According to the NRC, the national average for
commercial reactors is one shutdown per eighteen months.
Congressman David Price of North Carolina sent the NRC a report by
scientists at MIT and Princeton that pinpointed the waste pools as the
biggest risk at the plant. “Spent fuel recently discharged from a
reactor could heat up relatively rapidly and catch fire,” wrote Bob
Alvarez, a former advisor to the Department of Energy and co-author of
the report. “The fire could well spread to older fuel. The long-term
land contamination consequences of such an event could be
significantly worse than Chernobyl.”

The study recommended relatively inexpensive fixes, which would have
cost Progress approximately $5 million a year—less than the $6.6
million annual bonus for Progress CEO Warren Cavanaugh.
Progress scoffed at the idea and recruited the help of NRC
Commissioner Edward McGaffigan to smear the MIT/Princeton report.
McGaffigan is a nuclear enthusiast who has worked for both Republicans
and Democrats. A veteran of the National Security Council in the
Reagan administration, McGaffigan took a special interest in promoting
nuclear plants to US client states. He served two terms as NRC
Commissioner under Clinton as a tireless proponent of nuclear plant
construction and deregulation, and consistently dismissed the risks
associated with the transport and storage of nuclear waste.
McGaffigan’s meddling has outraged many anti-nuclear activists. Lewis
Pitts, an environmental attorney in North Carolina says, “The NRC has
directed the production of a bogus study to deny decades of science on
the perils of pool fires.”

On Jul 2, 10:14*am, bob haller wrote:
I am surprised terrorists havent flown bomb laden planes into oil
refernies.

perhaps their home countries need the oil revenue desperately?

Whacking a typical oil refinery would only kill a few hundred, at
most, and only cost us a few billions that they'll only pass along to
the retain end-user pump, along with extra profits for good measure.

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On Jul 2, 10:12*am, bob haller wrote:
Modern power grids are kind of auto-protect, and most cities have at
least two feeders plus increasingly independent backup energy in order
to keep basic services going for at least several hours or even a few
days.

10 years ago that was likely true, but in these modern days of just in
time, and cutting costs by minimizing excess capacity a attack of any
type could devastate our nation. china and others have probed our
national power grids controls. sending the proper commend by internet
could order power plant generators to overspeed and destroy
themselves. worse theres at least a 6 month lead time for replacement
generators and the US no longer has the ability to manufacturer them.
like so many other products today they are imported...... congress has
held hearings on this, power generation executives promised to fix
things, but a year later hadnt.

now imagine the power grid being taken off line in either mid summer
or mid winter. with power off for weeks or longer..

people could freeze to death, or die from lack of AC, everything would
be disrupted including water supplies, food distribution, etc etc. the
nations economy would freeze..... raw sewage contaminating everything

and backup nuke power stations have limited generator run times, they
cant go forever withot diesel fuel replinshement.. needed not only to
control reactors but waste core storage pools

Yes, as is the older portions of our national energy grids would tend
to cascade into failure mode over a very large area (mostly our NE and
SE parts would be hurt). Repairs and picking the heavy loads back up
to speed could take a couple days, but not weeks. Most folks without
energy could be gathered up and protected, whereas I don't believe
we'd lose at worse case more than 1% from an all-out preemptive grid
attack, that is as long as we can return the favor in order to prevent
another devastating attack.

Disconnecting from the internet is perhaps necessary, using private/
dedicated fiber optics and microwave links which most utilities and
major corporations do already.

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On Jul 2, 2:39*pm, Brad Guth wrote:
On Jul 2, 10:14*am, bob haller wrote:

I am surprised terrorists havent flown bomb laden planes into oil
refernies.

perhaps their home countries need the oil revenue desperately?

Whacking a typical oil refinery would only kill a few hundred, at
most, and only cost us a few billions that they'll only pass along to
the retain end-user pump, along with extra profits for good measure.

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There are just a few LARGE oil refernies in our country and we depend
on them to turn crude into gasoline.

Now take just 2 of them off line after attack and during rebuilding.

6 months to a couple years with less gasoline at any cost? what would
that do with our economy

The japanese nuke power plant failed BEFORE the sunami hit....

Meltdown: What Really Happened at Fukushima?Jake Adelstein and David
McNeill 2:08 PM ET 648 Views Comments (4) It$B!G(Bs been one of the
mysteries of Japan$B!G(Bs ongoing nuclear disaster: How much of the damage
did the March 11 earthquake inflict on Fukushima Daiichi$B!G(Bs reactors in
the 40 minutes before the devastating tsunami arrived? The stakes are
high: If the quake alone structurally compromised the plant and the
safety of its nuclear fuel, then every other similar reactor in Japan
is at risk.

Throughout the months of lies and misinformation, one story has stuck:
$B!H(BThe earthquake knocked out the plant$B!G(Bs electric power, halting
cooling to its reactors,$B!I(B as the government spokesman Yukio Edano said
at a March 15 press conference in Tokyo. The story, which has been
repeated again and again, boils down to this: $B!H(Bafter the earthquake,
the tsunami - a unique, unforeseeable [the Japanese word is soteigai]
event - then washed out the plant$B!G(Bs back-up generators, shutting down
all cooling and starting the chain of events that would cause the
world$B!G(Bs first triple meltdown to occur.$B!I(B

But what if recirculation pipes and cooling pipes, burst, snapped,
leaked, and broke completely after the earthquake -- long before the
tidal wave reached the facilities, long before the electricity went
out? This would surprise few people familiar with the 40-year-old Unit
1, the grandfather of the nuclear reactors still operating in Japan.

The authors have spoken to several workers at the plant who recite the
same story: Serious damage to piping and at least one of the reactors
before the tsunami hit. All have requested anonymity because they are
still working at the plant or are connected with TEPCO. One worker, a
27-year-old maintenance engineer who was at the Fukushima complex on
March 11, recalls hissing and leaking pipes. $B!H(BI personally saw pipes
that came apart and I assume that there were many more that had been
broken throughout the plant. There$B!G(Bs no doubt that the earthquake did
a lot of damage inside the plant," he said. "There were definitely
leaking pipes, but we don$B!G(Bt know which pipes - that has to be
investigated. I also saw that part of the wall of the turbine building
for Unit 1 had come away. That crack might have affected the reactor.$B!I(B

The reactor walls of the reactor are quite fragile, he notes. $B!H(BIf the
walls are too rigid, they can crack under the slightest pressure from
inside so they have to be breakable because if the pressure is kept
inside and there is a buildup of pressure, it can damage the equipment
inside the walls so it needs to be allowed to escape. It$B!G(Bs designed to
give during a crisis, if not it could be worse - that might be
shocking to others, but to us it$B!G(Bs common sense.$B!I(B

A second worker, a technician in his late 30s, who was also on site at
the time of the earthquake, narrated what happened. $B!H(BIt felt like the
earthquake hit in two waves, the first impact was so intense you could
see the building shaking, the pipes buckling, and within minutes, I
saw pipes bursting. Some fell off the wall. Others snapped. I was
pretty sure that some of the oxygen tanks stored on site had exploded
but I didn$B!G(Bt see for myself. Someone yelled that we all needed to
evacuate and I was good with that. But I was severely alarmed because
as I was leaving I was told and I could see that several pipes had
cracked open, including what I believe were cold water supply pipes.
That would mean that coolant couldn$B!G(Bt get to the reactor core. If you
can$B!G(Bt sufficiently get the coolant to the core, it melts down. You
don$B!G(Bt have to have to be a nuclear scientist to figure that out.$B!I(B


As he was heading to his car, he could see the walls of the reactor
one building itself had already started to collapse. $B!H(BThere were holes
in them. In the first few minutes, no one was thinking about a
tsunami. We were thinking about survival.$B!I(B

A third worker was coming into work late when the earthquake hit. $B!H(BI
was in a building nearby when the earthquake shook. After the second
shockwave hit, I heard a loud explosion that was almost deafening. I
looked out the window and I could see white smoke coming from reactor
one. I thought to myself, $B!F(Bthis is the end.$B!G!I(B

When the worker got to the office five to 15 minutes later the
supervisor ordered them all to evacuate, explaining, $B!H(Bthere$B!G(Bs been an
explosion of some gas tanks in reactor one, probably the oxygen tanks.
In addition to this there has been some structural damage, pipes have
burst, meltdown is possible. Please take shelter immediately.$B!I(B (It
should be noted that there have been several explosions at Daiichi
even after the March 11 earthquake, one of which TEPCO stated, $B!H(Bwas
probably due to a gas tank left behind in the debris$B!I(B.)

However, while the employees prepared to leave, the tsunami warning
came. Many of them fled to the top floor of a building near the site
and waited to be rescued.

The reason for official reluctance to admit that the earthquake did
direct structural damage to reactor one is obvious. Katsunobu Onda,
author of TEPCO: The Dark Empire ($BEl5~EENO!&0E9u$NDk9q(B), who sounded the alarm
about the firm in his 2007 book explains it this way: $B!H(BIf TEPCO and
the government of Japan admit an earthquake can do direct damage to
the reactor, this raises suspicions about the safety of every reactor
they run. They are using a number of antiquated reactors that have the
same systematic problems, the same wear and tear on the piping.$B!I(B

In a previous story, Kei Sugaoka, a Japanese engineer who worked at
the Unit 1 site, says that he wasn$B!G(Bt surprised that a meltdown took
place after the earthquake. He sent the Japanese government a letter,
dated June 28, 2000, warning them of the problems there. It took the
Japanese government more than two years to act on that warning. Mr.
Sugaoka has also said he saw yakuza tattoos on many of the cleanup
crew staff. When interviewed on May 23 he stated, $B!H(BThe plant had
problems galore and the approach taken with them was piecemeal. Most
of the critical work: construction work, inspection work, and welding
were entrusted to sub-contracted employees with little technical
background or knowledge of nuclear radiation. I can$B!G(Bt remember there
ever being a disaster drill. The TEPCO employees never got their hands
dirty.$B!I(B

Onda notes, $B!H(BI$B!G(Bve spent decades researching TEPCO and its nuclear
power plants and what I$B!G(Bve found, and what government reports confirm
is that the nuclear reactors are only as strong as their weakest
links, and those links are the pipes.$B!I(B

During his research, Onda spoke with several engineers who worked at
the TEPCO plants. One told him that often piping would not match up
the way it should according to the blueprints. In that case, the only
solution was to use heavy machinery to pull the pipes close enough
together to weld them shut. Inspection of piping was often cursory and
the backs of the pipes, which were hard to reach, were often ignored.
Since the inspections themselves were generally cursory and done by
visual checks, it was easy to ignore them. Repair jobs were rushed; no
one wanted to be exposed to nuclear radiation longer than necessary.

Onda adds, $B!H(BWhen I first visited the Fukushima power plant it was a
web of pipes. Pipes on the wall, on the ceiling, on the ground. You$B!G(Bd
have to walk over them, duck under them$B!=(Bsometimes you$B!G(Bd bump your head
on them. It was like a maze of pipes inside.$B!I(B

Onda believes it$B!G(Bs not very difficult to explain what happened at Unit
1 and perhaps the other reactors as well. $B!H(BThe pipes, which regulate
the heat of the reactor and carry coolant, are the veins and arteries
of a nuclear power plant; the core is the heart. If the pipes burst,
vital components don$B!G(Bt reach the heart and thus you have a heart
attack, in nuclear terms: meltdown. In simpler terms, you can$B!G(Bt cool a
reactor core if the pipes carrying the coolant and regulating the heat
rupture$B!=(Bit doesn$B!G(Bt get to the core.$B!I(B

Tooru Hasuike, a TEPCO employee from 1977 until 2009 andformer general
safety manager of the Fukushima plant, also notes: $B!H(BThe emergency
plans for a nuclear disaster at the Fukushima plant had no mention of
using sea-water to cool the core. To pump seawater into the core is to
destroy the reactor. The only reason you$B!G(Bd do that is no other water
or coolant was available.$B!I(B

Problems with the fractured, deteriorating, poorly repaired pipes and
the cooling system had been pointed out for years. In 2002, whistle-
blower allegations that TEPCO had deliberately falsified safety
records came to light and the company was forced to shut down all of
its reactors and inspect them, including the Fukushima Daiichi Power
Plant. Kei Sugaoka, a GE on-site inspector first notified Japan$B!G(Bs
nuclear watch dog, Nuclear Industrial Safey Agency (NISA) in June of
2000. Not only did the government of Japan take more than two years to
address the problem and collude on covering it up, they gave the name
of the whistleblower to TEPCO.



In September of 2002, TEPCO admitted to covering up data concerning
cracks in critical circulation pipes in addition to previously
revealed falsifications. In their analysis of the cover-up, The
Citizen$B!G(Bs Nuclear Information Center writes: $B!H(BThe records that were
covered up had to do with cracks in parts of the reactor known as
recirculation pipes. These pipes are there to siphon off heat from the
reactor. If these pipes were to fracture, it would result in a serious
accident in which coolant leaks out. From the perspective of safety,
these are highly important pieces of equipment. Cracks were found in
the Fukushima Daiichi Power Plant, reactor one, reactor two, reactor
three, reactor four, reactor five.$B!I(B The cracks in the pipes were not
due to earthquake damage; they came from the simple wear and tear of
long-term usage.

On March 2, nine days before the meltdown, the Nuclear Industrial
Safety Agency (NISA) gave TEPCO a warning on its failure to inspect
critical pieces of equipment at the plant, which included the
recirculation pumps. TEPCO was ordered to make the inspections,
perform repairs if needed and give a report to the NISA on June 2. The
report is not confirmed to have been filed as of this time.

The problems were not only with the piping. Gas tanks at the site also
exploded after the earthquake. The outside of the reactor building
suffered structural damage. There was some chaos. There was no one
really qualified to assess the radioactive leakage because, as the
Nuclear Industrial Safety Agency admits, after the accident all the on-
site inspectors fled the site. And the quake and tsunami broke most of
the monitoring equipment so there was little information available on
radiation afterwards.

Before the dawn on March 12, the water levels at the reactor began to
plummet and the radiation began rising. Meltdown was taking place. The
TEPCO Press release issued on March 12 just past 4am stated, $B!H(Bthe
pressure within the containment vessel is high but stable.$B!I(B There was
a note buried in the release that many people missed. $B!H(BThe emergency
water circulation system was cooling the steam within the core; it has
ceased to function.$B!I(B

According to The Chunichi Shinbun and other sources, a few hours after
the earthquake extremely high levels of radiation were being measured
within the reactor one building. The levels were so high that if you
spent a full day exposed to them it would be fatal. The water levels
of the reactor were already sinking.After the Japanese government
forced TEPCO to release hundreds of pages of documents relating to the
accident in May, Bloomberg reported on May 19 that a radiation alarm
went off 1.5 kilometers from the number one reactor on March 11 at
3:29 p.m., minutes before the tsunami reached the plant. TEPCO would
not deny the possibility that there was significant radiation leakage
before the power went out. They did assert that the alarm might have
simply malfunctioned.

On March 11, at 9:51 p.m., under the CEO's orders, the inside of the
reactor building was declared a no-entry zone. Around 11 p.m.,
radiation levels for the inside of the turbine building, which was
next door to the reactor, reached hourly levels of 0.5 to 1.2 mSv. The
meltdown was already underway.

Oddly enough, while TEPCO later insisted that the cause of the
meltdown was the tsunami knocking out emergency power systems, at the
7:47 p.m. TEPCO press conference the same day, the spokesman in
response to questions from the press about the cooling systems stated
that the emergency water circulation equipment and reactor core
isolation time cooling systems would work even without electricity.

Sometime between 4 and 6 a.m. on March 12, Masao Yoshida, the plant
manager decided it was time to pump seawater into the reactor core and
notified TEPCO. Seawater was not pumped in until hours after a
hydrogen explosion occurred, roughly 8:00 p.m. that day. By then, it
was probably already too late.

On May 15, TEPCO went some way toward admitting at least some of these
claims in a report called $B!H(BReactor Core Status of Fukushima Daiichi
Nuclear Power Station Unit One.$B!I(B The report said there might have been
pre-tsunami damage to key facilities including pipes. $B!H(BThis means that
assurances from the industry in Japan and overseas that the reactors
were robust is now blown apart,$B!I(B said Shaun Burnie, an independent
nuclear waste consultant. $B!H(BIt raises fundamental questions on all
reactors in high seismic risk areas.$B!I(B

As Burnie points out, TEPCO also admitted massive fuel melt --16 hours
after loss of coolant, and 7-8 hours before the explosion in unit 1.
$B!H(BSince they must have known all this - their decision to flood with
massive water volumes would guarantee massive additional contamination
- including leaks to the ocean.$B!I(B

No one knows exactly how much damage was done to the plant by the
quake, or if this damage alone would account for the meltdown.
However, eyewitness testimony and TEPOC$B!G(BS own data indicates that the
damage was significant. All of this despite the fact that shaking
experienced at the plant during the quake was within it$B!G(Bs approved
design specifications. Says Hasuike: $B!H(BWhat really happened at the
Fukushima Daiicihi Nuclear Power Plant to cause a meltdown? TEPCO and
the government of Japan have provided many explanations. They don$B!G(Bt
make sense. The one thing they haven$B!G(Bt provided is the truth. It$B!G(Bs
time that they did.$B!I(B

Jake Adelstein is an investigative journalist, consultant, and the
author of Tokyo Vice: An American Reporter On The Police Beat In
Japan. He is also a board member of the Washington, D.C.-based
Polaris Project Japan, which combats human trafficking and the
exploitation of women and children in the sex trade. David McNeill
writes for The Irish Times, The Independent and other publications. He
has taught courses on journalism at Sophia University and is a
coordinator of Japan Focus.

Photos via Reuters.

On Jul 2, 2:52*pm, Brad Guth wrote:
On Jul 2, 10:12*am, bob haller wrote:





Modern power grids are kind of auto-protect, and most cities have at
least two feeders plus increasingly independent backup energy in order
to keep basic services going for at least several hours or even a few
days.

10 years ago that was likely true, but in these modern days of just in
time, and cutting costs by minimizing excess capacity a attack of any
type could devastate our nation. china and others have probed our
national power grids controls. sending the proper commend by internet
could order power plant generators to overspeed and destroy
themselves. worse theres at least a 6 month lead time for replacement
generators and the US no longer has the ability to manufacturer them.
like so many other products today they are imported...... congress has
held hearings on this, power generation executives promised to fix
things, but a year later hadnt.

now imagine the power grid being taken off line in either mid summer
or mid winter. with power off for weeks or longer..

people could freeze to death, or die from lack of AC, everything would
be disrupted including water supplies, food distribution, etc etc. the
nations economy would freeze..... raw sewage contaminating everything

and backup nuke power stations have limited generator run times, they
cant go forever withot diesel fuel replinshement.. needed not only to
control reactors but waste core storage pools

Yes, as is the older portions of our national energy grids would tend
to cascade into failure mode over a very large area (mostly our NE and
SE parts would be hurt). *Repairs and picking the heavy loads back up
to speed could take a couple days, but not weeks. *Most folks without
energy could be gathered up and protected, whereas I don't believe
we'd lose at worse case more than 1% from an all-out preemptive grid
attack, that is as long as we can return the favor in order to prevent
another devastating attack.

Disconnecting from the internet is perhaps necessary, using private/
dedicated fiber optics and microwave links which most utilities and
major corporations do already.

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- Show quoted text -

brad you missed the part where the generators are controilled by the
internet. many generators could be destroyed and no parts in stock.

I talked to a retired electric power executive the other day. he
remarked that years ago both duquesne light nukeplants tripped off
line at the same time but the grid never changed because there was
enough back up capacity to pick up the load.

he said with private companies providing power the grid couldnt carry
such a load.........

either the grid would have a big problem and what if the plants
couldnt be restored quickly?