Where does Krypton come from?

On Sep 18, 12:13*pm, "Peter Webb"
wrote:
"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote in ...



Dear Craig:

"Craig" wrote in message
....
On Sep 15, 11:24 am, dlzc wrote:
On Sep 15, 1:50 am, Andrew Usher wrote:

I was looking at the composition of Earth's
atmosphere relative to solar.
...
So where does all the krypton come from?

Remember that we capture stuff from solar wind
(even noble gases ionize), and we have the
equivalent of a nuclear reactor at Earth's core.

As a terrestrial chemist, I've never much worried
about where the elements came from.

The Purchasing Department! *;)

I've been told that medium weight elements (up
to about iron) are made in old stars,

Probably much less massive than this. *Mira is shedding about what a star
like our Sun can produce.

I have a bit of a problem with this.

I can accept that elements between (say) Lithium and Iron can be made in
stars lighter than the earth.

But it is also my understanding that main sequence stars lighter than a few
times greater than the Sun don't explode and disperse their elements into
space for the (eventual) production of rocky planets. If this is true, the
large bulk of krypton on earth must have been formed in supernovae, which
require first generation stars much larger than the Sun.

You have the added complication that the stars of the Milky Way are
moving in tandem around the galactic axis and have been for billions
of years.Even if an antecedent first generation star (other than our
own Sun) generated the elements that are especially abundant and
diverse on Earth,it would have to fit in with the motion of our solar
system around the galactic axis.A two stage stellar evolutionary
process based on a transition from a larger to a more compact stellar
form looks the most promising avenue.


Astronomers are not in the habit of taking structural considerations
in account in stellar evolutionary processes nor indeed much else.

On Sep 18, 4:13 am, "Peter Webb"
wrote:

I can accept that elements between (say) Lithium and Iron can be made in
stars lighter than the earth.

There are no stars lighter than the Earth. Perhaps you meant lighter
than
the Sun?

But it is also my understanding that main sequence stars lighter than a few
times greater than the Sun don't explode and disperse their elements into
space for the (eventual) production of rocky planets.

Planetary nebulae! And the s-process can produce all the elements up
to
bismuth.

Andrew Usher

On Sep 18, 3:47*pm, Andrew Usher wrote:
On Sep 18, 4:13 am, "Peter Webb"

wrote:
I can accept that elements between (say) Lithium and Iron can be made in
stars lighter than the earth.

There are no stars lighter than the Earth. Perhaps you meant lighter
than
the Sun?

But it is also my understanding that main sequence stars lighter than a few
times greater than the Sun don't explode and disperse their elements into
space for the (eventual) production of rocky planets.

Planetary nebulae! And the s-process can produce all the elements up
to
bismuth.

Andrew Usher

----------------
why Bismuth and not Unanium ??

TIA
Y.Porat
--------------------------------

On Sep 18, 5:56*pm, "Y.Porat" wrote:
On Sep 18, 3:47*pm, Andrew Usher wrote:





On Sep 18, 4:13 am, "Peter Webb"

wrote:
I can accept that elements between (say) Lithium and Iron can be made in
stars lighter than the earth.

There are no stars lighter than the Earth. Perhaps you meant lighter
than
the Sun?

But it is also my understanding that main sequence stars lighter than a few
times greater than the Sun don't explode and disperse their elements into
space for the (eventual) production of rocky planets.

Planetary nebulae! And the s-process can produce all the elements up
to
bismuth.

Andrew Usher

----------------
why Bismuth and not Unanium ??

TIA
Y.Porat
--------------------------------- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

------------
sorry typo
why not Uranium??
in my abstract (close to its end)
there is the structural description
of Lead and Bismuth
the structure of U
is not much heavier
so
if a star can produce Bismuth
why cant it produce Uranium
i am curious to know
what made you so decisive
in telling that Bismuth is the upper limit
to be created by some superstar ??

TIA
Y.Porat
------------------------------

On Sep 18, 9:43 pm, "Y.y.Porat" wrote:

But it is also my understanding that main sequence stars lighter than a few
times greater than the Sun don't explode and disperse their elements into
space for the (eventual) production of rocky planets.

Planetary nebulae! And the s-process can produce all the elements up
to
bismuth.

----------------
why Bismuth and not Uranium ??

The s-process is slow neutron capture. This is the only way elements
heavier
than aluminum (or so) can be made in stars to small to go supernova.
The
neutron captures are slow enough that the zone of instability between
bismuth
and thorium (or mass numbers 211-225) can't be penetrated. The
heaviest
long-lived isotope produced is bismuth-209.

Look up 's-process' for more.

Andrew Usher

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:22:53 -0700, Andrew Usher wrote:

On Sep 16, 12:17 pm, Lofty Goat wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 04:57:07 +0000, Sam Wormley wrote:
But what is important here is that the core temperature of the sun is
15E6 K which is only hot enough to "burn" hydrogen into helium.

I long since gave up on the notion that conditions within the cores of
stars are perfectly uniform.

They are, nearly enough. What do you think would make it otherwise?

Well, it's been a while since I studied this stuff, but I hadn't heard
that the Boltzmann distribution had been repealed....

There will be some nuclei in the Sun's core with enough momentum to
produce some higher-order fusion. Not many, but some.

Moreover, some of those larger nuclei will have enough momentum to fuse
past iron even though the reaction absorbs energy at its bottom line.

Some of those will wind up as krypton nuclei.

Granted, there's likely enough neutron flux in the Sun's core that most
of those few krypton nuclei won't remain so for long.

Still, the likelihood of finding brand-new krypton in the Sun is still
greater than zero.

So, I'll stand by my original assertion:

Some of the krypton reaching the Earth from the Sun was produced in the
Sun, but if somehow one could separate that out from the krypton which
pre-dated the Sun one wouldn't find even enough to measure, let alone to
notice.

On Seep 19, 7:51*pm, Andrew Usher wrote:
On Seep 18, 9:43 pm, "Y.y.Porat" wrote:

But it is also my understanding that main sequence stars lighter than a few
times greater than the Sun don't explode and disperse their elements into
space for the (eventual) production of rocky planets.

Planetary nebulae! And the s-process can produce all the elements up
to
bismuth.

----------------
why Bismuth and not Uranium ??

The s-process is slow neutron capture. This is the only way elements
heavier
than aluminum (or so) can be made in stars to small to go supernova.
The
neutron captures are slow enough that the zone of instability between
bismuth
and thorium (or mass numbers 211-225) can't be penetrated. The
heaviest
long-lived isotope produced is bismuth-209.

Look up 's-process' for more.

Andrew Usher

----------------
i dont know Whit you know
anyway
see my Bismoth structure
and see for instance my iron structure in my model
you can see that iron acrually is a section in the Bismoth structure
please note and try to understand
about the "weak points' in the Bismuth
structure
it is a location in which different
sections are connected while the connection point is
not by 4 connections
but by just 2 deuteron's or in other cases 2 Alphas
so you can understand that 2 connections
are weaker than 4 connections
and in harsh conditions
**that is a breaking point*
no the interesting thing is that
those sections between the weak points
are the same structures as lighter
and stable Nu cs
i gave you a tangible example
that you by chance can find all its parts
in my model
it is the Iron nuc
if you have the iron nuc
and you see the section between
the weak points of Bismuth
you realize that they are the same !!

so bottom line
it looks obvious how the Bismuth
was created (composed )
from lighter nu cs
it was not created step by step
*'by adding single protons and neutrons*

the supernova was more 'lazy'
it took a whole already created block
of iron and 'used it ' as a already
created before 'block'!!
hope i explained myself clearly
and the 'stitch point' is as well
quite obvious and tangible
now mind you
i was building my model without thinking about that 'scenario' in my
mind
that i brought just above
**i was building it *completely independent o such ideas or knowledge'
that came to me only after completing
my model
from Deuteron to U.

you can see as well the other sections
between weak points that
are compatible with elements like
barium or Bromine etc
now
of course the 'sections between the weak point'
it *not all the story**
in reality it is more detailed
by proton and neutron capture
or emission as you say
so i strongly suggest that
you Will get into my model
and invest some time to study it
you Will find it on the long run
worthwhile !! and stunningly
surprising

ATB
Y.Porat
--------------------------

On Sep 16, 8:36*am, Salmon Egg wrote:
In article ,
*Lofty Goat wrote:

Yes, some krypton is produced in the Sun, merely because of fluctuations
in density and temperature. *Maybe a handful in a mass 100K times of that
of Earth. *Infinitesimal? *Yes. *As for some of that getting here via the
solar wind, not enough to measure, let alone notice.

Can you be more specific on "infinitesimal." Fusion will ordinarily
cesae past atomic number Z=26 Fe. I would Kr at Z=36 would so much
additional energy that the Boltzmann tail will not supply enough energy,
even at solar temperatures, to generated Kr from other nuclei.

Bill

--
Private Profit; Public Poop

--------------
Crypton nucs do not come from buliding up
the iron groop
it comes from fission of Uranium family
now please folow my explanation about how
the Uranium family was built up
in supernova from ..........

from smaller nucs like iron etc
used as already existing 'raw material 'blocks'
tobuild up the U family
that later de composed back to its previous
basic blocks .....
it is described in this thread that i sent
before
please look for it
and if you have more questions
please ask me
and i will try to re explain accordingly

ATB
Y.Porat
--------------------------

On Sep 17, 12:40 am, "Y.Porat" wrote:
On Sep 16, 10:59 pm, BradGuth wrote:



On Sep 15, 10:15 pm, "Y.y.Porat" wrote:

On Sep 16, 7:46 am, BradGuth wrote:

On Sep 15, 9:00 pm, "Y.Porat" wrote:

On Sep 16, 5:31 am, Sam Wormley wrote:

Craig wrote:

As a terrestrial chemist, I've never much worried about where the
elements came from. I've been told that medium weight elements (up to
about iron) are made in old stars, which have run out of other fuel.
I've been told that heavier elements come from supernova explosions.

Is there any significant production of elements like krypton in stars
like our sun? I'm not concerned with splitting infinitesimals - I'm
happy to call the rate of oxidation of wood at ambient temperatures
essentially zero, for example. Are these elements actually made in
our sun, or do those channels not turn on at all until after easier
fuel is exhausted?

Is mass transport of *anything* to Earth from the solar wind really
significant?

- Craig

Our sun is fusing hydrogen into helium... and in its old age
its core will get hot enough to fuse helium in to carbon, oxygen
and nitrogen. The most massive of stars can fuse element up
through the iron group... but that's the end of the line for
fusion processes.

Krypton is produced primarily by the fission of uranium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krypton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_krypton
http://www.nndc.bnl.gov/chart/reCent...?z=36&n=48&z=1
http://www.nndc.bnl.gov/chart/getdat...s=84KR&unc=nds

The Element Krypton is found in the sun, but not produced by
the sun.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

----------------
Sami
look again in my abstract
as see the scheme of Lead
(forsome reasons i didnt show the Uranium
nuc...)
but Lead is one on the chain
sosee there
how it is composed
see that there are there some reak poins
in which that nc can be broken
the Krypton as well has one of the weak points

the Lead has two weak point
Krypton is of couse much smaller
ands is therefore much stable
but still includes a fraction of
Lead (i dont what to mension the word U
in order of not falling in to some
survailance list .....)
and dont you ever dare tocall my model
'Plonk'
because if you do it
your place will be in the garbage parroting science

keep well
Y.Porat
-------------------------

But Zionist/Nazi parroting is pretty much all that Usenet/newsgroups
is about, or do you think Muslims were the really smart ones.

~ BG

------------------
you are a good scientist (:-)
each word you said i s pure science
go see your psychiatrist
Y.P
----------------------

Do you believe that religions play no tactical or subversive role in
government and public funded affairs?

~ BG- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

---------------
Brad
since which year you are a citiszen of the US??

TIA
Y.Porat
----------------------

1946, and perhaps that makes me an old enough fart. Before 1946 I was
an ET genetic code of sorts.

Why are you excluding and/or avoiding religion, as the very core and
too often bloody cesspool of this global melt-down?

Are only a few diehard Muslims or the likes of undisclosed pretend-
Atheists at fault?
~ BG

"Lofty Goat" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 04:57:07 +0000, Sam Wormley wrote:
But what is important here is that the core temperature of the sun is
15E6 K which is only hot enough to "burn" hydrogen into helium.

I long since gave up on the notion that conditions within the cores of
stars are perfectly uniform.

The temperature dependence of nuclear energy generating reactions is very
strong. Even a small variation in temperature (in an internal spherical
zone around the center, for example) would be quenched by increased local
energy production and expansion of the local gas, bringing the temperature
down to its equilibrium value.

So the temperature distribution is very spherically symmetric (in a rotating
star, think oblate spheroid, but the same principle applies). At a given
radius from the center, temperature is very uniform.

--
Mike Dworetsky

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