WI: Lunar Gemini

In article ,
says...

snip

I think this is the kind of input the astronauts gave. They saw where
the engineers were going and then said "okay, let's look at this from
the astronaut's" perspective ...

And, as I pointed out earlier, many of the astronauts during Mercury,
Gemini and Apollo were engineers themselves. Those who didn't have
engineering degrees had learned a lot of aeronautical engineering during
their test pilot days. (The *very* few astronauts who didn't have either
an engineering degree or test pilot experience generally had other
degrees or experience useful in the design and operation of manned
spacecraft.)

When you hire engineers, you use their engineering skills. It's stupid
not to.

Granted, the astronauts' contributions have gotten more press than those
of the nameless guys at the North American or McDonnell or Grumman
drafting tables. It's in the nature of America's lionization of the
astronauts -- we needed heroes and the media provided them. But many
non-astronauts, like Max Faget, Caldwell Johnson, Tom Kelly, John Aaron,
Chris Kraft and Gene Kranz, among others, also got a lot of press and had
their contributions recognized.

--

It's not the pace of life I mind; | Doug Van Dorn
it's the sudden stop at the end... |

On 23 Jul 2003 08:56:44 -0700, (JGDeRuvo) wrote:

I hate to do another FTETTM reference, but in "1968" there's a great
scene where Borman is in the design room at Downey talking about
redesigning the hatch. The new hatch is put on and Borman sees what
they're doing and says "wait a minute ..." He then grabs a chair and
sits in the CM skeleton like he's seated and then shows the engineers
why their design isn't going to work PRACTICALLY.

....However, on the flip side, did any of the Astronauts assigned to
Bethpage and the LM give any input regarding the initial proposals to
change from seated to standing during flight? That was all engineers,
kids.

....But, to be fair, on the flipside of *that*, there is the issue of
fitting square backpacks in round hatches after the need for a round
hatch had already been eliminated :-)


OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

In article ,
om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy... _facility.org says...
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:32:27 GMT, Doug... wrote:

But many non-astronauts, like Max Faget, Caldwell Johnson, Tom Kelly, John Aaron,
Chris Kraft and Gene Kranz, among others, also got a lot of press and had
their contributions recognized.

...And let's not forget Rocco Petrone, Gunter Wendt, Skip Chauvin,
Bill Tindall, Shorty Powers, Dee O'Hara and Dr. Chuck Berry. Even Joe
Shea was getting positive press prior to A1.

...So again, I ask John just what *was* his motivation for the
statement he made? Not trying to slam him, but just trying to
understand where he was coming from.

Well, I did say "among many others," LOL.

And motivation was my question, too. Seems like an agenda-laden post
that we're all responding to -- it's just that the agenda doesn't seem
clear.

--

It's not the pace of life I mind; | Doug Van Dorn
it's the sudden stop at the end... |

Finally continuing on I had the Apollo 4 flight destroying (by the
pogo problems that happened on 6) itself resulted in serious delays in
the Saturn program. NASA choose to go with a with a Gemini Landing
program...

At which point, with the lunar landing goal already accomplished, the
government would have cancelled the troubled Saturn program, and Apollo
along with it.

... followed by later landings with Apollo.

IMO, it never would have gotten the chance.

So? He's making something for Orbiter... it can be as plausible (or
implausable) as he wants. Personally, I'm looking forward to trying to fly
a lunar gemini.

OM om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_researc h_facility.org wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:42:30 GMT, Doug... wrote:

I think that was, once again, an issue driven by Pete Conrad. He had a
*lot* of say in the final LM cockpit configuration. That's one big
reason why he was backing up the first LM checkout flight -- Deke and the
rest of the Crew Operations Division wanted Conrad's expertise available
to McDivitt and his crew.

...There is one thing that I wish I'd had the chance to ask Tom Kelly
before his recent passing. At what point during LM development did
Conrad or any NASA Astronaut or non-Astronaut first have input into
what the cockpit control arrangement should be like? Did they have any
input into the original five-legged, four-windowed, two docking port
model at all, or was NASA input relegated just to specs and not actual
layout?



At the Glenn L. Martin Museum, we have photos of early Martin design
LEM development. I have seen a photo of Conrad and a Martin co. test
pilot evaluating the cockpit of a LEM mockup. It still had seats and
the ascent stage resembled a helicopter nose section. I'm not sure of
the date of the pic. So this ,I believe, kind of backs up the notion
that Conrad had a fair bit of say in LEM cockpit layout. Conrad
visited at least two competitors(Martin and Grumman) to evaluate and
review designs. I think it's safe to assume he visited other aerospace
firms bidding on the LEM. After viewing each mock up I wonder if he
was able to inform each contractor about the designs of their
competitor. I'm not sure when Grumman was awarded the LEM contract.

Gene

On 24 Jul 2003 14:11:06 -0700, (Gene
DiGennaro) wrote:

I'm not sure when Grumman was awarded the LEM contract.

....Grumman was awarded the $350M contract in September 1962, with five
major subcontractors along for the ride: Bell Aerosystems (Ascent
Engine), Hamilton Standard (ECS), Marquardt (RCS), Rocketdyne (Descent
Engine) and Raytheon (Computer Systems).

....What I'm curious about are two things:

1) Who were the other 8 or 9 contractors bidding for the LM?

2) What were their proposals?



OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Bob Martin" wrote in
:


Finally continuing on I had the Apollo 4 flight destroying (by the
pogo problems that happened on 6) itself resulted in serious delays
in the Saturn program. NASA choose to go with a with a Gemini
Landing program...

At which point, with the lunar landing goal already accomplished, the
government would have cancelled the troubled Saturn program, and
Apollo along with it.

... followed by later landings with Apollo.

IMO, it never would have gotten the chance.

So? He's making something for Orbiter...

Correct... and I said I was looking forward to it.

it can be as plausible (or
implausable) as he wants.

Of course. And I can give my opinion on its plausibility... or did someone
pass a law when I wasn't looking?

--
JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

OM om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_researc h_facility.org wrote in message . ..


...Grumman was awarded the $350M contract in September 1962, with
five
major subcontractors along for the ride: Bell Aerosystems (Ascent
Engine), Hamilton Standard (ECS), Marquardt (RCS), Rocketdyne (Descent
Engine) and Raytheon (Computer Systems).

...What I'm curious about are two things:

1) Who were the other 8 or 9 contractors bidding for the LM?

2) What were their proposals?



OM


Doesn't Mark Wade's site have some info on the other Apollo LEM bids?
I haven't seen any illustrations of LEM proposals on his site though.
The Martin design, IIRC had a spherical ascent stage with heleicopter
style windows. This sat upon the descent stage that looked like it was
made from corrugated aluminum. I think there were 5 legs too. I'll
have to go back and look at the picture again. I don't have it handy.

Gene

rk said:
Kevin Willoughby wrote:
Wasn't there an Assimov story
Perhaps it was "Spell My Name With [one] S"

Ouch! I guess last night was my night for minor errors.
--
Kevin Willoughby lid

We'd spend the remaining time trying to fix the engine.
-- Neil Armstrong