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#301
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 6:28:38 AM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:
Denying that a religion set up by an individual (or group thereof) is efficacious is the real fantasy :-) Well, yes, there is the placebo effect. But if you want your prayers to be answered, there has to be an actual God on the other end of the telephone line. John Savard |
#302
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 9:54:08 AM UTC-6, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
Next year will be 50 years since the Apollo mission which landed a person on the moon and yet none of you feel what has become of that innovative organisation or rather what happened as theorists eventually overtook it. https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170319.html Primitive people ! - if this is what space exploration has accomplished then it would have been better not to have ventured there at all. No, space exploration has not done anything as far as our notions of the simple geometry of Earth's orbit is concerned, since this is all old news from long before we went into space. John Savard |
#303
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
The comments here are from the 'best-boys-in-the-class' so are therefore discounted in terms of substance yet, what is different with the manipulation of images of the Earth from space is something different from earlier Earth bound conclusions where effects were extrapolated indirectly as we participate in the motions of the planet-
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170319.html On the September Equinox the Earth really looks and moves like this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_S...-tilt-23.4.gif The Brexit mentality is also the Royal Society mentality but this is what people get when they put the RA/Dec system in competition with the Lat/Long system and the 24 hour system for the basic fact of a round and rotating Earth. |
#304
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:28:34 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote: On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 1:30:27 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:33:37 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel wrote: People have free will. THEY are the ones that set up religions. Good that you finally admit that religions are fantasies created by primitive people. But don't forget this the next time you want to quote from the Bible. I didn't say ALL religions were fantasies, and I didn't say most were created by primitive people, either. Denying that a religion set up by an individual (or group thereof) is efficacious is the real fantasy :-) You made the general claim that people make up religions, without mentioning any exception... You admit that in principle it might not have happened but you believe the probability for that is negligibly low. Yep. So you claim that a negligible small difference is more than a minor difference. Which means you are contradicting yourself. I overlooked the "negligibly" and took it as "very" so I retract my "yep." Interpreting a sentence as it's opposite will give you problems.... Advanced civilizations and supernatural gods are two very different things. I don't believe in the "supernatural." Do you? Which means you don't believe in the Bible, a book full of references to the supernatural... Only in YOUR opinion. The word "supernatural" does not appear in the Bible. Depends on the translation I suppose, nevertheless many supernatural events are described in the Bible. It begins in Genesis 1 with the creation of the universe in just six days, light appearing before the Sun existed, etc etc. Next, read Revelation... Then why did WWI and WWII happen? Why did the holocaust happen? Why did the Armenian genocide happen? And why were atomic bombs dropped over Japan in August 1945? Did those watching over us turn away when those things happened, or what? Because free will is more important than death. Intervention may be necessary IF total destruction is likely, but wars in general don't qualify. You WILL note that a nuclear exchange with the USSR was avoided when many thought it would happen. Did that happen because Nikita Chrustchev listened to God and removed his missiles from Cuba in 1962? evil grin No, but JFK may have listened to Him. I believe that a large fraction of humanity has received and receives inspiration, likely unbeknownst to themselves. Kennedy saw that Soviet missiles were removed from Cuba, but it was Chrustchev who removed them. I don't believe anything that happens is "supernatural." Which means you believe that the supernatural events described in the Bible never happened. Right? Wrong. Just because we don't understand how it was done doesn't make it "supernatural." A lot of churches will disagree with you. Did you ever consider what "a wonder by God" actually means? |
#305
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:28:34 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel wrote: On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 1:30:27 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:33:37 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel wrote: People have free will. THEY are the ones that set up religions. Good that you finally admit that religions are fantasies created by primitive people. But don't forget this the next time you want to quote from the Bible. I didn't say ALL religions were fantasies, and I didn't say most were created by primitive people, either. Denying that a religion set up by an individual (or group thereof) is efficacious is the real fantasy :-) You made the general claim that people make up religions, without mentioning any exception... Consider that mentioned now. You admit that in principle it might not have happened but you believe the probability for that is negligibly low. Yep. So you claim that a negligible small difference is more than a minor difference. Which means you are contradicting yourself. I overlooked the "negligibly" and took it as "very" so I retract my "yep." Interpreting a sentence as it's opposite will give you problems.... I wouldn't say that "very low" is the opposite of "negligibly low" are opposites, but yeah. Advanced civilizations and supernatural gods are two very different things. I don't believe in the "supernatural." Do you? Which means you don't believe in the Bible, a book full of references to the supernatural... Only in YOUR opinion. The word "supernatural" does not appear in the Bible. Depends on the translation I suppose, nevertheless many supernatural events are described in the Bible. It begins in Genesis 1 with the creation of the universe in just six days, light appearing before the Sun existed, etc etc. Next, read Revelation... "1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. "2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. "3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. "4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. "5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." So "day" wasn't mentioned until after the light was divided from the darkness. Furthermore, some things in the Bible are literal and others are figurative. Some translations don't use "day" but use an indeterminate period. You WILL note that a nuclear exchange with the USSR was avoided when many thought it would happen. Did that happen because Nikita Chrustchev listened to God and removed his missiles from Cuba in 1962? evil grin No, but JFK may have listened to Him. I believe that a large fraction of humanity has received and receives inspiration, likely unbeknownst to themselves. Kennedy saw that Soviet missiles were removed from Cuba, but it was Chrustchev who removed them. At the threat of military conflict. He chickened out. So why did JFK believe that K would back down? I don't believe anything that happens is "supernatural." Which means you believe that the supernatural events described in the Bible never happened. Right? Wrong. Just because we don't understand how it was done doesn't make it "supernatural." A lot of churches will disagree with you. A lot of churches interpret scripture in different ways and as a result make up their own doctrine. Did you ever consider what "a wonder by God" actually means? "Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid." -- Isaiah 29:14 Did you? Did it happen? There were many instances in the Bible where things didn't go badly according to those who were considered wise and prudent. Were those "supernatural"? |
#306
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
The thing about mediocrity is that spirituality doesn't let the dour in so while some pretend to defend the ancient writings, these writings defend themselves.
"God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” Evening came, and morning followed—the first day." Genesis 1 Twilight came and dawn followed but unfortunately the mediocre here, whether they think themselves spiritual or not, can't manage to assign cause to that event as they modeled themselves into trouble - " It is a fact not generally known that,owing to the difference between solar and sidereal time,the Earth rotates upon its axis once more often than there are days in the year" NASA /Harvard The mathematical work that spans Genesis 1 to Genesis 7 v11 or from the birth of Adam to the first drop of rain in Noah's flood is for those who are both mathematical and spiritual just as the last work of the Bible is. They are there for those who are spiritual rather than those who are neither mathematical nor spiritual and who have damned themselves by leaving cause and effect of the day/night cycle. |
#307
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 12:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote: On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote: On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:28:34 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel wrote: On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 1:30:27 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:33:37 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel wrote: People have free will. THEY are the ones that set up religions. Good that you finally admit that religions are fantasies created by primitive people. But don't forget this the next time you want to quote from the Bible. I didn't say ALL religions were fantasies, and I didn't say most were created by primitive people, either. Denying that a religion set up by an individual (or group thereof) is efficacious is the real fantasy :-) You made the general claim that people make up religions, without mentioning any exception... Consider that mentioned now. You admit that in principle it might not have happened but you believe the probability for that is negligibly low. Yep. So you claim that a negligible small difference is more than a minor difference. Which means you are contradicting yourself. I overlooked the "negligibly" and took it as "very" so I retract my "yep." Interpreting a sentence as it's opposite will give you problems.... I wouldn't say that "very low" is the opposite of "negligibly low" are opposites, but yeah. Advanced civilizations and supernatural gods are two very different things. I don't believe in the "supernatural." Do you? Which means you don't believe in the Bible, a book full of references to the supernatural... Only in YOUR opinion. The word "supernatural" does not appear in the Bible. Depends on the translation I suppose, nevertheless many supernatural events are described in the Bible. It begins in Genesis 1 with the creation of the universe in just six days, light appearing before the Sun existed, etc etc. Next, read Revelation... "1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. "2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. "3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. "4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. "5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." So "day" wasn't mentioned until after the light was divided from the darkness. Furthermore, some things in the Bible are literal and others are figurative. Some translations don't use "day" but use an indeterminate period. You WILL note that a nuclear exchange with the USSR was avoided when many thought it would happen. Did that happen because Nikita Chrustchev listened to God and removed his missiles from Cuba in 1962? evil grin No, but JFK may have listened to Him. I believe that a large fraction of humanity has received and receives inspiration, likely unbeknownst to themselves. Kennedy saw that Soviet missiles were removed from Cuba, but it was Chrustchev who removed them. At the threat of military conflict. He chickened out. So why did JFK believe that K would back down? In my vocabulary he acted responsibly. Having hundreds of million people killed just because you don't want to "chicken out" isn't mature. You could expect such action from an immature teenager but not from a sensible grown-up person.... I don't believe anything that happens is "supernatural." Which means you believe that the supernatural events described in the Bible never happened. Right? Wrong. Just because we don't understand how it was done doesn't make it "supernatural." A lot of churches will disagree with you. A lot of churches interpret scripture in different ways and as a result make up their own doctrine. That is indeed a problem inherent in any religion, or any ideology making absolute claims... Did you ever consider what "a wonder by God" actually means? "Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid." -- Isaiah 29:14 Did you? Did it happen? There were many instances in the Bible where things didn't go badly according to those who were considered wise and prudent. Were those "supernatural"? I suppose you will agree with this; "God is an extraterrestrial civilization much more advanced than ours, and Erich von Dniken is his prophet." :-) |
#308
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Sunday, October 14, 2018 at 12:38:43 PM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 12:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel wrote: On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote: You made the general claim that people make up religions, without mentioning any exception... Consider that mentioned now. Interpreting a sentence as it's opposite will give you problems.... I wouldn't say that "very low" is the opposite of "negligibly low" are opposites, but yeah. Depends on the translation I suppose, nevertheless many supernatural events are described in the Bible. It begins in Genesis 1 with the creation of the universe in just six days, light appearing before the Sun existed, etc etc. Next, read Revelation... "1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. "2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. "3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. "4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. "5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." So "day" wasn't mentioned until after the light was divided from the darkness. Furthermore, some things in the Bible are literal and others are figurative. Some translations don't use "day" but use an indeterminate period. .... Kennedy saw that Soviet missiles were removed from Cuba, but it was Chrustchev who removed them. At the threat of military conflict. He chickened out. So why did JFK believe that K would back down? In my vocabulary he acted responsibly. Having hundreds of million people killed just because you don't want to "chicken out" isn't mature. You could expect such action from an immature teenager but not from a sensible grown-up person.... Some may think that JFK's actions were immature since he risked exactly what K wasn't willing to. What he did seemed foolhardy but wasn't: a wondrous work. A lot of churches will disagree with you. A lot of churches interpret scripture in different ways and as a result make up their own doctrine. That is indeed a problem inherent in any religion, or any ideology making absolute claims... This is true of MOST religions, but not all. The development of Christianity had minimal ideology and grew "precept by precept; line upon line." At first, it was only to "the house of Israel" then Peter had a vision concerning Cornelius. Then there was the matter of circumcision for the gentiles, etc.. By the time of the Council of Nice in 325 AD there were two major divisions espousing different beliefs about the Godhead, both wrong. Thus it ceased to be the faith taught in the first century. This was predicted by Paul. Did you ever consider what "a wonder by God" actually means? "Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid." -- Isaiah 29:14 Did you? Did it happen? There were many instances in the Bible where things didn't go badly according to those who were considered wise and prudent. Were those "supernatural"? I suppose you will agree with this; "God is an extraterrestrial civilization much more advanced than ours, and Erich von Däniken is his prophet." :-) Do I have to repeat my thesis AGAIN? That the possibility of an ancient ET civilization having godlike powers may quite probably exist should cast doubt in any honest mind that atheism is a viable position. And any honest Christian must also admit that such a civilization might actually exist because of what Paul wrote: "16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: "17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Of course, most believe that we will be "spirits" living in a "spiritual heaven" but they conveniently forget that Jesus had a PHYSICAL body when he appeared after his resurrection, and so will we if we will be "like Him": "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." -- 1 John 3:2 |
#309
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Sunday, October 14, 2018 at 3:37:47 PM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:
Do I have to repeat my thesis AGAIN? That the possibility of an ancient ET civilization having godlike powers may quite probably exist should cast doubt in any honest mind that atheism is a viable position. And I find that position bizarre and untenable. It might cast doubt in any honest mind that the sort-of theism with these aliens replacing God is unviable, but it doesn't make atheism unviable, since even if the aliens exist, there's no reason to think it particularly likely that they're interfering with us. John Savard |
#310
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Sunday, October 14, 2018 at 8:27:31 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
On Sunday, October 14, 2018 at 3:37:47 PM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote: Do I have to repeat my thesis AGAIN? That the possibility of an ancient ET civilization having godlike powers may quite probably exist should cast doubt in any honest mind that atheism is a viable position. And I find that position bizarre and untenable. That's YOUR prejudiced position :-) It might cast doubt in any honest mind that the sort-of theism with these aliens replacing God is unviable, but it doesn't make atheism unviable, since even if the aliens exist, there's no reason to think it particularly likely that they're interfering with us. John Savard That's an assumption from a parochial perspective. Why would you believe aliens billions of years ahead of us would be as self-centered as we are? |
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