A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Space Science » Technology
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Suggestions needed: Condensing steam in space



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 12th 11, 02:44 AM posted to sci.space.tech
byblow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Suggestions needed: Condensing steam in space


I need something that’s completely automated and can extract 100
tonnes of water per day from steam (does 100 tonnes of steam = 100
tonnes of water?).

This condenser, heat exchanger or whatever has to function realiably
despite lots of dissolved solids in the steam, so it has to be highly
resistant to fouling.

It also has to be as compact as possible, weigh as little as possible,
and use as little electricity as possible.

My goal is to extract 4,800-6,000 tonnes of water from steam in 90
days or less. After that, I don't care if the condenser is a total
loss.

I've read that condensers at power plants typically use a vacuum or
partial vacuum to suck in steam, and also to expand it for more
efficient cooling. Could the natural vacuum of space be used for these
purposes?

I appreciate any help I can get!


======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Note, not really on-topic, but intriuging and I want to see where this develops.

  #2  
Old October 13th 11, 03:45 AM posted to sci.space.tech
Keith Henson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 34
Default Suggestions needed: Condensing steam in space

On Oct 11, 6:44 pm, byblow wrote:
I need something that s completely automated and can extract 100
tonnes of water per day from steam (does 100 tonnes of steam 100
tonnes of water?).


Yes. Conservation of mass.

This condenser, heat exchanger or whatever has to function realiably
despite lots of dissolved solids in the steam, so it has to be highly
resistant to fouling.


Steam doesn't have dissolved solids. Wet steam, where there are water
drops in the steam can carry over some solids. But the side of a heat
exchanger that gets fouled is usually the side with the heat rise
rather than the condensing side.

It also has to be as compact as possible, weigh as little as possible,
and use as little electricity as possible.


Condensing steam is an energy source rather than a sink.

My goal is to extract 4,800-6,000 tonnes of water from steam in 90
days or less. After that, I don't care if the condenser is a total
loss.


You have not stated the most important operating conditions. Is this
on earth? Mars, the moon or free space (zero g)?

The biggest problem (if in space) will be the radiator area. Mars,
you could probably transfer the heat to the atmosphere.


I've read that condensers at power plants typically use a vacuum or
partial vacuum to suck in steam, and also to expand it for more
efficient cooling. Could the natural vacuum of space be used for these
purposes?


No.
I appreciate any help I can get!

MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Note, not really on-topic, but intriuging and I want to see where this

develops.

  #3  
Old October 13th 11, 04:30 PM posted to sci.space.tech
byblow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Suggestions needed: Condensing steam in space

On Oct 12, 9:45 pm, Keith Henson wrote:
On Oct 11, 6:44 pm, byblow wrote:

I need something that s completely automated and can extract 100
tonnes of water per day from steam (does 100 tonnes of steam = 100
tonnes of water?).


Yes. Conservation of mass.

This condenser, heat exchanger or whatever has to function realiably
despite lots of dissolved solids in the steam, so it has to be highly
resistant to fouling.


Steam doesn't have dissolved solids. Wet steam, where there are water
drops in the steam can carry over some solids. But the side of a heat
exchanger that gets fouled is usually the side with the heat rise
rather than the condensing side.

It also has to be as compact as possible, weigh as little as possible,
and use as little electricity as possible.


Condensing steam is an energy source rather than a sink.


Could you please expound upon this? I had thought of using the steam
to spin a turbine for electricity, but since this would be in free
space, I was concerned about a resulting need for radiators, which are
heavy.

Could something like a radiator serve as a steam condenser? If so,
that could work nicely: The steam spins a turbine to generate
electricity, then flows through a radiator (which uses no electricity)
where it condenses. Would it be feasible to use electricity generated
by the steam to actively refrigerate some part of the hardware to
complement the radiators?

My goal is to extract 4,800-6,000 tonnes of water from steam in 90
days or less. After that, I don't care if the condenser is a total
loss.


You have not stated the most important operating conditions. Is this
on earth? Mars, the moon or free space (zero g)?


Free space in zero g.


The biggest problem (if in space) will be the radiator area. Mars,
you could probably transfer the heat to the atmosphere.


I believe the radiators on the ISS have a capacity of ~ 1-tonne to 10
KW (heat). Any idea how many tonnes of ISS-quality radiators would be
needed for the condensation of 100 tonnes of steam per day? Let's say
the temperature of the steam is 600 kelvin and 5 tonnes of steam are
produced per hour.

I've read that condensers at power plants typically use a vacuum or
partial vacuum to suck in steam, and also to expand it for more
efficient cooling. Could the natural vacuum of space be used for these
purposes?


No.


Darn! I was really hoping the natural vacuum could be somehow useful
for condensing or filtering the steam/water.

Thank you very much for your help, Keith! If anything ever comes of
this, I won't forget you.

I appreciate any help I can get!

MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Note, not really on-topic, but intriuging and I want to see where th

is

develops.


  #4  
Old October 16th 11, 10:29 PM posted to sci.space.tech
Keith Henson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 34
Default Suggestions needed: Condensing steam in space

On Oct 13, 8:30 am, byblow wrote:
On Oct 12, 9:45 pm, Keith Henson wrote:

On Oct 11, 6:44 pm, byblow wrote:


I need something that s completely automated and can extract 100
tonnes of water per day from steam (does 100 tonnes of steam 100
tonnes of water?).


Yes. Conservation of mass.


This condenser, heat exchanger or whatever has to function realiably
despite lots of dissolved solids in the steam, so it has to be highly
resistant to fouling.


Steam doesn't have dissolved solids. Wet steam, where there are wate

r
drops in the steam can carry over some solids. But the side of a hea

t
exchanger that gets fouled is usually the side with the heat rise
rather than the condensing side.


It also has to be as compact as possible, weigh as little as possible

,
and use as little electricity as possible.


Condensing steam is an energy source rather than a sink.


Could you please expound upon this? I had thought of using the steam
to spin a turbine for electricity, but since this would be in free
space, I was concerned about a resulting need for radiators, which are
heavy.


Heat engines work by exploiting the temperature difference of a source
and a cold sink. In space radiators are the only game in town to get
rid of heat.

Could something like a radiator serve as a steam condenser? If so,
that could work nicely: The steam spins a turbine to generate
electricity, then flows through a radiator (which uses no electricity)
where it condenses. Would it be feasible to use electricity generated
by the steam to actively refrigerate some part of the hardware to
complement the radiators?

My goal is to extract 4,800-6,000 tonnes of water from steam in 90
days or less. After that, I don't care if the condenser is a total
loss.


You have not stated the most important operating conditions. Is this
on earth? Mars, the moon or free space (zero g)?


Free space in zero g.


Dr. Eric Drexler and I came up with on solution to this problem in
1979. http://www.nss.org/settlement/L5news/L5news1979.htm July and
August issues.

# Gas Entrained Solids - A Heat Transfer Fluid For Use In Space, Part
1
# by H. Keith Henson & K. Eric Drexler

The numbers in the papers are still valid.

The biggest problem (if in space) will be the radiator area. Mars,
you could probably transfer the heat to the atmosphere.


I believe the radiators on the ISS have a capacity of ~ 1-tonne to 10
KW (heat). Any idea how many tonnes of ISS-quality radiators would be
needed for the condensation of 100 tonnes of steam per day? Let's say
the temperature of the steam is 600 kelvin and 5 tonnes of steam are
produced per hour.


ISS radiators are extremely heavy for the power they radiate. It
would be a very unusual design that condensed water at 600 deg K.

I've read that condensers at power plants typically use a vacuum or
partial vacuum to suck in steam, and also to expand it for more
efficient cooling. Could the natural vacuum of space be used for thes

e
purposes?


No.


Darn! I was really hoping the natural vacuum could be somehow useful
for condensing or filtering the steam/water.


These exchanges have me wondering at the level of your physics and
engineering. The net is loaded with resources to bring you up to
speed.

Thank you very much for your help, Keith! If anything ever comes of
this, I won't forget you.


If you want, email me. It's hkeithhenson (at) gmail (dot) com.

Keith

I appreciate any help I can get!



MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
Note, not really on-topic, but intriuging and I want to see where

th
is

develops.




 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What if(on Dry steam. G=EMC^2 Glazier[_1_] Misc 64 September 5th 09 06:58 PM
dozens good and rational suggestions for the Human Space FlightPlans Committee in my new ghostNASA article gaetanomarano Policy 7 June 23rd 09 08:58 PM
Steam Rockets tomcat Space Shuttle 333 January 23rd 07 04:27 AM
Steam Rockets tomcat Policy 334 January 23rd 07 04:27 AM
Steam Engine Spaceship P. Ussyliquor Science 0 December 15th 03 12:12 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.