Precession of the Equinoxes explanation

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 4:06:42 PM UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 1:27:46 PM UTC, oriel36 wrote:

So put away your clocks for a while and join an astronomical tradition which did spot that Sirius skipped an appearance by one day after the fourth 365 day cycle. When you can answer why that happens you can then engage in a discussion on the further refinement which shows up as the Precession of the Equinoxes.

I look forward to reading your explanation of where Precession of the Equinoxes comes from, if, as you say, attributing it to axial precession is an error.

To explain the Precession of the Equinoxes requires you use the background stars and the central Sun to prove the Earth moves around the Sun -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ


Specifically the ability to put the transition from a twilight observation to a dawn observation in context as the stars move from the left to the right of the Sun. It is this observation which constitutes the observation that the Earth turns 1461 times within the confines of 4 orbital circuits of the Sun.

So you are all on common ground here - when asked how to prove the Earth moves around the Sun, the new perspective is quite straightforward when using the wider perspective or what it appears like from the surface of the Earth as ElNath, Castor and Pollux are seen to do -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

In that the Earth doesn't rotate in exactly 365 1/4 times per orbital circuit, it does not return exactly to the same orbital position after completing 4 annual circuits at the end of February 29th and this is why a small drift is registered in the position of the stars to the central Sun or the Precession of the Equinoxes as it is called.

No, that doesn't explain it - you already know that leap days are added and left out to keep the seasons lined up with the calendar to handle the fact that a year is not an even number of days. If precession of the equinox was related to fractional days, either the calendar would be adjusted or the seasons would drift away from the calendar.

But the calendar stays synched with the equinoxes, while the stars behind the sun on the equinox drift 1 degree every 72 years.

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 9:43:17 PM UTC, wrote:
No, that doesn't explain it -

Listen to me very carefully son as this is momentous by any standards.

The proof that the Earth moves through space and around the Sun uses a specific line-of-sight spectacle where the stars move from a twilight appearance to a dawn appearance -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ

One particular star, in this case the brightest star Sirius, plays a very specific role in determining how many times the planet turns within 4 orbital circuits by skipping an appearance by one day and one rotation after the fourth 365 days cycle. The calendar is nothing more than using full rotations to gauge annual cycles and picking up the orbital distance lost over the four cycles of non leap 365 day cycles by using an extra rotation that is now February 29th.

As the appearance of Sirius defined the Earth's orbital position in space, it would drift back into the central Sun's glare were the leap day correction were not applied.

I am sorry, this really is for men who can reason using a very specific astronomical event which occurs once every 4th year -

".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the new year" Canopus Decree 238 BC

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 10:24:37 PM UTC, oriel36 wrote:

One particular star, in this case the brightest star Sirius, plays a very specific role in determining how many times the planet turns within 4 orbital circuits by skipping an appearance by one day and one rotation after the fourth 365 days cycle.

OK, Sirius. You are probably aware that during the era of the Middle Kingdom, Egyptians based their calendar on the heliacal rising of Sirius. This occurred just before the annual flooding of the Nile and the summer solstice, after a 70-day absence from the skies.

In 2016 it will occur around August the 8th, more than a month after the summer solstice. This is because of axial precession.

This cannot be explained by the fractional number of days in an orbit - that would cause the solstice to drift through the calendar along with the heliacal rising, but the heliacal rising used to be before the solstice, and now it is after.

No telescopes, magnifications, theories of gravity or any of the rest of the modern stuff you don't believe in is needed to demonstrate the facts of precession, just records of how the sky used to look, and how it looks now.

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 8:51:00 AM UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 10:24:37 PM UTC, oriel36 wrote:

One particular star, in this case the brightest star Sirius, plays a very specific role in determining how many times the planet turns within 4 orbital circuits by skipping an appearance by one day and one rotation after the fourth 365 days cycle.

OK, Sirius. You are probably aware that during the era of the Middle Kingdom, Egyptians based their calendar on the heliacal rising of Sirius. This occurred just before the annual flooding of the Nile and the summer solstice, after a 70-day absence from the skies.



I have to shake my head sometimes but such is this era. The Egyptian astronomers were exceptionally careful is spotting that Sirius skips a first appearance after the fourth 365 day cycle. Here I am in the 21st century explaining exactly what that observation means in terms of daily and orbital dynamics and it looks like you have just discovered the foundations of timekeeping and reciting something back to me that I have known in details for many years.

All those little squares on a calendar represent one rotation and the four assembled calendars from 2012 to 2016 represent 4 annual circuits of the Earth around the Sun. In summary, the proportions of rotations to orbital circuits are encapsulated in those 4 calendar years in a convenient format based on full rotations.

".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the new year" Canopus Decree 238 BC

I am the first person to put that observation in context of the number of times the planet turns within the confines of 4 orbital circuits in a toxic atmosphere dictated by celestial sphere enthusiasts who would mock me on account that they 'reason' or via 'solar vs sidereal' fictions 1465 rotations within the calendar framework of 4 years.


In 2016 it will occur around August the 8th, more than a month after the summer solstice. This is because of axial precession.


You are out of your depth, the first appearance of Sirius occurs at different times across latitudes as it was explained many times previously in this forum. Regardless of where it appears, from that date it first shows itself at dawn, it will appear after 365 days after 3 years but will skip an appearance by one day after the fourth year.

That the position of the North/South poles to the circle of illumination and to the central Sun are exactly as they were in antiquity insofar as those ancient alignments still maintain the spectacle to the Solstices and Equinoxes, the observed drift known as the Precession of the Equinoxes is a property of the same observation which narrows rotations down to 365 1/4 rotations per orbital circuit.

Highly technical material that requires people who know the historical and technical details, at least up to a point.



This cannot be explained by the fractional number of days in an orbit - that would cause the solstice to drift through the calendar along with the heliacal rising, but the heliacal rising used to be before the solstice, and now it is after.


You are not able to handle the leap day drift in terms of the proportion of rotations to orbital circuits because you are stuck in a clockwork driven nightmare that so many have buried themselves in.

Even when shown that a planet has two distinct rotations to the Sun arising from separate causes thereby displacing the flawed notion of axial precession. It is possible to see a planet turn separately to the Sun as well as turning daily and it is these dynamics which are being suffocated by outdated perspectives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=612gSZsplpE

About 45 seconds into that time lapse the accelerated timescale shows how all planets, including the Earth, behave as they turn daily and orbit the Sun. It explains why we have hemispherical seasons and why the natural noon cycle varies as the planet turns to the central Sun in two distinct ways.

No telescopes, magnifications, theories of gravity or any of the rest of the modern stuff you don't believe in is needed to demonstrate the facts of precession, just records of how the sky used to look, and how it looks now..

The sky indeed !, you just have been shown proof that the Earth travels around the Sun by applying an unused observation where the stars move from a twilight appearance to a dawn appearance in a line-of-sight spectacle due to the orbital motion of the Earth. Once observers start to use this insight much of astronomy springs into life and especially its links to terrestrial science.

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 10:01:09 AM UTC, oriel36 wrote:
the first appearance of Sirius occurs at different times across latitudes

How can it be that it used to be before the solstice in Egypt, and now it is after the solstice in Egypt?

If the fractions of a day in an orbit were adding up to change the date of the heliacal rising, they would also change the date of the solstice.

The answer is Precession of the Equinoxes - the subject you said you were going to explain. It is clear that you don't even think it exists. You know less about it than Hipparchus did over 2000 eyars ago.

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 10:19:45 AM UTC, wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 10:01:09 AM UTC, oriel36 wrote:
the first appearance of Sirius occurs at different times across latitudes

How can it be that it used to be before the solstice in Egypt, and now it is after the solstice in Egypt?


The neolithic alignments make a mockery of that statement for the North/South poles still hold their positions to the central Sun and the circle of illumination as they did 5200 years ago at Newgrange or a thousand years later at Stonehenge. The Precession of the Equinoxes is simply a further refinement of the extra rotation which is used to bridge the orbital position across 4 annual circuits or 365 1/4 rotations per circuit. This is not a matter of throwing good information after chronically bad assertions, the range of an astronomer's mind takes in the neolithic alignment builders, the timekeeping astronomers of Egypt, the time lapse footage of the Hubble telescope and many more technical/historical details to elucidate the multiple topics.

You have actual time lapse footage of dual surface rotations to the central Sun demonstrating what actually causes the seasons by displacing the old idea of axial precession as the dynamic behind the Precession of the Equinoxes. -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=612gSZsplpE


What is missing from that time lapse is the planet's circle of illumination and the relationship of the rotational poles to that planetary features as they are carried around in a circle. The Earth's North/South poles will be observed to move in the exact same way to the Sun and the circle of illumination as they are carried around in a circle annually -

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...precession.svg




If the fractions of a day in an orbit were adding up to change the date of the heliacal rising, they would also change the date of the solstice.

The answer is Precession of the Equinoxes - the subject you said you were going to explain. It is clear that you don't even think it exists. You know less about it than Hipparchus did over 2000 eyars ago.

The Precession of the Equinoxes is simply an extension of the leap day correction which uses the original observation that to return the Earth to the same position in space an additional 24 hours of orbital motion and one rotation is required after the fourth period of 365 rotations. The slight drift beyond this is due to the fact that it is not exactly 365 1/4 rotations per circuit.

As for Hipparchus and so on, I live in the 21st century and can easily deal with observations using tools they guys couldn't imagine to draw proper conclusions and specifically the links between the motions of the Earth and terrestrial sciences. I don't pander to geocentric astronomers and recognize many of the original heliocentric views have to be modified to make sense of modern imaging.

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 6:14:28 AM UTC-7, wrote:

If you were right, the equinox would not precess, and the First Point of Aries,
named by Hipparchus, would still be in Aries, and not in Pisces heading for
Aquarius.

Oh, dear! That reminds me of one of the unfortunate associations of equinoctial
precession, which, no doubt, the original poster can further employ in attempts
to discredit conventional astronomy...

And so I present a musical memory from around 1968 or thereabouts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB90kgSnqFE

John Savard

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 5:03:28 PM UTC-8, Quadibloc wrote:
On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 6:14:28 AM UTC-7, wrote:

If you were right, the equinox would not precess, and the First Point of Aries,
named by Hipparchus, would still be in Aries, and not in Pisces heading for
Aquarius.

Oh, dear! That reminds me of one of the unfortunate associations of equinoctial
precession, which, no doubt, the original poster can further employ in attempts
to discredit conventional astronomy...

And so I present a musical memory from around 1968 or thereabouts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB90kgSnqFE

John Savard

That great music brings back equally great memories... saw the play locally while in college... you have me inspired to listen to the entire album, as I type away...

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 8:48:14 PM UTC, oriel36 wrote:
The Earth's North/South poles will be observed to move in the exact same way to the Sun and the circle of illumination as they are carried around in a circle annually -

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...precession.svg

Sometimes, if I engage Gerald for long enough, he coughs up the diagram or youtube clip which caused his original error on a subject.

And here it is for precession.

Gerald thinks the precession of the Earth's axis, indicated by the arrow at the North Pole, happens annually. In fact it happens once every 26000 years, so he is a little off.

If the pole was swinging about like that every year, we wouldn't have one pole star, the North Pole would describe a huge circle 47 degrees across like this every year:
http://calmecac.inaoep.mx/~frosales/...precession.gif

The pole would swing from Polaris to Deneb to Vega and back around to Polaris every year!

Tip for Gerald: look at the sky. The axis of the Earth does not swing around the sky in a year - it is oriented towards a point within a degree of Polaris, the North Star. We don't need to consider Sirius and the Egyptians to prove that you are utterly wrong about precession: the fact that that star is called Polaris tells the whole story.

As for Hipparchus and so on, I live in the 21st century and can easily deal with observations using tools they guys couldn't imagine

We know: unlabelled diagrams on the internet and animated youtube clips.

What you apparently cannot do is look at the night sky and a calendar. Hipparchus was pretty good at that.