Big Bang Theroist's

Whether you indeed occupy the middle ground depends on what kind of god or
gods you believe in. One thing that both sides in 19th century debates
agreed was that evolution was not the will of God in the Judaeochristian
sense, and so that EITHER the existence of evolution disproved the existence
of that kind of god (the Darwinist position) OR vice versa (the position of
the Creationists of that age). It is hard to see how a rejection of the
common ground could be called the middle ground.

"Tim Cutts" wrote in message
...
I personally occupy a middle ground here, and am probably equally
detested by both the likes of the OP and by the likes of Richard
Dawkins. I'm a molecular biologist by training; I don't believe in
creationism, I am quite happy with evolution as a theory, and yet I do
believe in God. I can't really explain why; the rational, scientific
part of me knows there's no evidence to sustain that belief (or to
discount it either, of course). I just believe it.

I suppose that's a fairly classic definition of faith. But I'm quite
aware that it may simply be a result of the mechanism that I outlined in
my first paragraph.

The OP will probably now flame me for not believing in the literal truth
of the bible, and Richard Dawkins would accuse me of childish and woolly
thinking. :-)

Anyway - doesn't have much relevance to astronomy this...

Tim

Jim,

My answer to your question is "both", hope and truth. I believe my hope "is"
the truth.
It is a shame you believe in nothing.
Did you know that probably the best scientist to come along in the last five
hundred years was a believer in God and creation?
His name was Isaac Newton, though he did not believe in the trinity he
believed that Jesus was the son of God though not equal with God.
He also predicted the end of the world using the Bible and calculus to be
the year 2060.
Considering your deductions you must be a better thinker than this man. No
offense, you might truly be.
Only God the Father knows the time is my belief.

Bud Z

"James Hill" jay ay undaskor hill on microsoft's hot mail dottcomm system
wrote in message om...

"Bud Z" wrote in message
...
Tim,

You might believe in God, too bad you don't believe in the Christian
Bible.


I gather you mean he doesn't believe in the "teachings of" the Christian
Bible, not that he doesn't believe in the existence of a book?

Does he need to? Who wrote the bible? Mankind. You've got faith and
religion all mixed up with each other as if they are interchangeable.
Faith is a belief in something, be it Gaia, a Christian God, a pantheon of
gods, humanity, the ability of the doctors treating you or even science.
Religion is a structure created around a faith, often used to control and
restrict the views and beliefs of it's followers. Why do people go to
church to pray when God is supposedly everywhere? Because people who go to
church are told by the leader of the congregation what the bible says and
that they should follow it. In other words, that the followers should do
as the bible (written by humans) says, not what their faith in God tells
the to do.

Allow me to nail my colours to the mast. I do not and cannot believe in a
god and before you mention that I might change my mind when my time is
near, don't bother. I've been in a couple of rather nasty high speed car
crashes and the only thoughts I was having as the car was crumpling around
me were unprintable in polite company. Not once did I speculate on
offering prayer to a god. However, as long as a persons beliefs do not
impinge on anybody elses life, in other words, if they do not proseletize,
then I will fight for their rights to their faith.

As to the "Big Bang" starting from nothing. The problem I see is that it
is almost impossible for the human mind to comprehend "nothing" as we are
so used to "something". We have a problem understanding what we feel when
we die. Guess what? Nothing. So to you and others, you can use your
theories about creation to explain that God was there before everything
begins and he will be there at the end but all you are doing is filling
something you can't comprehend with god.

With regards to our existence being almost impossible: It only has to
occur once (as I think someone has already stated.) If there is a chance
something can happen, it doesn't matter how small that chance is if "the
dice" is rolled an unfeasibly large number of times. It *will* happen and
the rest, is history. Or nothing. Or God. Take your pick.

Religion offers limitless hope. Science searches for the truth. Hope or
truth. Which do you prefer, Bud?

Cheers,
Jim

Bud Z wrote:
Jim,

My answer to your question is "both", hope and truth. I believe my hope "is"
the truth.
It is a shame you believe in nothing.
Did you know that probably the best scientist to come along in the last five
hundred years was a believer in God and creation?
His name was Isaac Newton,

Funny,funny,funny.

Newton was an Arian and that type of heretic always can be identified
by his 'fruits'. He tried to set Jesus up as god's ' moral spokesman'
and himself up as 'god's 'scientific spokesman hence his terrestial
ballistics applied to planetary motion gets bumped up into the
spectacular sounding 'universal laws of gravitation'.It is a wonder the
creep did not chisel his laws out on a stone tablet to create an
effect.

I am a Christian and empiricism is little more than a pale imitation of
gnosticism and even the gnostics would have laughed themselves silly
at the pretension of that cult's adherents and the mantras they
chant,something like 'observation and experiment and can't prove
anything correct'.

Early Christianity protected itself from the assault of the gnostics
but unfortunately the compromise involves a heavy price.




though he did not believe in the trinity he
believed that Jesus was the son of God though not equal with God.
He also predicted the end of the world using the Bible and calculus to be
the year 2060.
Considering your deductions you must be a better thinker than this man. No
offense, you might truly be.
Only God the Father knows the time is my belief.

Bud Z


Of all the example you could have picked,that certainly takes some
beating but you certainly will torture these faithless creeps who
probably hate Newton for what he stuck them with,a useless mechanical
and cartoon solar system.



"James Hill" jay ay undaskor hill on microsoft's hot mail dottcomm system
wrote in message om...

"Bud Z" wrote in message
...
Tim,

You might believe in God, too bad you don't believe in the Christian
Bible.


I gather you mean he doesn't believe in the "teachings of" the Christian
Bible, not that he doesn't believe in the existence of a book?

Does he need to? Who wrote the bible? Mankind. You've got faith and
religion all mixed up with each other as if they are interchangeable.
Faith is a belief in something, be it Gaia, a Christian God, a pantheon of
gods, humanity, the ability of the doctors treating you or even science.
Religion is a structure created around a faith, often used to control and
restrict the views and beliefs of it's followers. Why do people go to
church to pray when God is supposedly everywhere? Because people who go to
church are told by the leader of the congregation what the bible says and
that they should follow it. In other words, that the followers should do
as the bible (written by humans) says, not what their faith in God tells
the to do.

Allow me to nail my colours to the mast. I do not and cannot believe in a
god and before you mention that I might change my mind when my time is
near, don't bother. I've been in a couple of rather nasty high speed car
crashes and the only thoughts I was having as the car was crumpling around
me were unprintable in polite company. Not once did I speculate on
offering prayer to a god. However, as long as a persons beliefs do not
impinge on anybody elses life, in other words, if they do not proseletize,
then I will fight for their rights to their faith.

As to the "Big Bang" starting from nothing. The problem I see is that it
is almost impossible for the human mind to comprehend "nothing" as we are
so used to "something". We have a problem understanding what we feel when
we die. Guess what? Nothing. So to you and others, you can use your
theories about creation to explain that God was there before everything
begins and he will be there at the end but all you are doing is filling
something you can't comprehend with god.

With regards to our existence being almost impossible: It only has to
occur once (as I think someone has already stated.) If there is a chance
something can happen, it doesn't matter how small that chance is if "the
dice" is rolled an unfeasibly large number of times. It *will* happen and
the rest, is history. Or nothing. Or God. Take your pick.

Religion offers limitless hope. Science searches for the truth. Hope or
truth. Which do you prefer, Bud?

Cheers,
Jim