Meade Petition

"Mark J Underwood" wrote in
message ...

"Roger Steer" wrote in message
oups.com...
I don't suppose he left a list of his fixed costs:

VAT
Rent
Rates
Utilities
Payroll
Office equipment

did he?

Unless he was making at least 50% markup on what he was paying Meade,
he was probably losing money. This is the reality of retailing. That
you don't like hearing it does not make it any less true.

The low American price reflects many things, aggressive protection of
their own manufacturers by the state from the 'free trade-open market',
that they keep banging-on about, being but one of them.

Roger


The point is that particularly in this country the mark up on many goods
is way above what would be considered a normal profit margin in most
countries. This is particularly true where there are limited sources of
the goods in question.



I notice the Meade LX200 GPS is selling in Sydney Australia for AUS$ 4279
.... that's £1769 The Warehouse Express price is £2479

Okay perhaps the AUS$ is a little weak .. but so is the £ ..something is
wrong here ??????

"Mark J Underwood" wrote in
message ...

"Mark J Underwood" wrote in
message ...

"Roger Steer" wrote in message
oups.com...
I don't suppose he left a list of his fixed costs:

VAT
Rent
Rates
Utilities
Payroll
Office equipment

did he?

Unless he was making at least 50% markup on what he was paying Meade,
he was probably losing money. This is the reality of retailing. That
you don't like hearing it does not make it any less true.

The low American price reflects many things, aggressive protection of
their own manufacturers by the state from the 'free trade-open market',
that they keep banging-on about, being but one of them.

Roger


The point is that particularly in this country the mark up on many goods
is way above what would be considered a normal profit margin in most
countries. This is particularly true where there are limited sources of
the goods in question.



I notice the Meade LX200 GPS is selling in Sydney Australia for AUS$ 4279
... that's £1769 The Warehouse Express price is £2479

Okay perhaps the AUS$ is a little weak .. but so is the £ ..something is
wrong here ??????

the 8 inch that is

snip

I notice the Meade LX200 GPS is selling in Sydney Australia for AUS$ 4279
... that's £1769 The Warehouse Express price is £2479

Okay perhaps the AUS$ is a little weak .. but so is the £ ..something is
wrong here ??????


the 8 inch that is


I wonder if the next time I'm at the AAT I can get one back in my hand
luggage ;-)

"John D. Tanner" wrote in message
...
snip

I notice the Meade LX200 GPS is selling in Sydney Australia for AUS$ 4279
... that's £1769 The Warehouse Express price is £2479

Okay perhaps the AUS$ is a little weak .. but so is the £ ..something is
wrong here ??????


the 8 inch that is


I wonder if the next time I'm at the AAT I can get one back in my hand
luggage ;-)

At that price even as excess baggage... VAT & Duty I suspect it would still
work out a bit cheaper ..

"Mark J Underwood" wrote in
message ...

"Mark J Underwood" wrote
in message ...

"Roger Steer" wrote in message
oups.com...
I don't suppose he left a list of his fixed costs:

VAT
Rent
Rates
Utilities
Payroll
Office equipment

did he?

Unless he was making at least 50% markup on what he was paying Meade,
he was probably losing money. This is the reality of retailing. That
you don't like hearing it does not make it any less true.

The low American price reflects many things, aggressive protection of
their own manufacturers by the state from the 'free trade-open
market',
that they keep banging-on about, being but one of them.

Roger


The point is that particularly in this country the mark up on many
goods is way above what would be considered a normal profit margin in
most countries. This is particularly true where there are limited
sources of the goods in question.



I notice the Meade LX200 GPS is selling in Sydney Australia for AUS$
4279 ... that's £1769 The Warehouse Express price is £2479

Okay perhaps the AUS$ is a little weak .. but so is the £ ..something is
wrong here ??????
The problem that is often missed, is that taxes hit multiple times. Just
the import 'costs' to the Australian company, will be less, because they
pay 10% GST, against 17.5% VAT. However the extra taxes, then also gets
put on the prices the UK dealer is paying for everything else. Rent
mentioned in the above figure 'set', will typically be at least twice what
is paid by the US dealer (I know, I used to hire two office suites, one in
a suburb of San Francisco, and the other in part of Essex UK - I got over
twice the square footage for my money in the US). On the Payroll, the
'net' wages being paid, will probably be beaten by the US employee, but
gross, these wages will include national insurance, and the taxes, pushing
them up well beyond what the US company has to find. As another poster has
said, unless you shifting small goods in huge quantities, where you can
make good money on a small markup, the 'overheads' for a UK retail
company, make something like 50% markup necessary to actually make the
goods 'pay'. In fact for small goods, the markup will have to be a lot
above this (a typical 'florist' for example, will work on a 100% markup).
About half of the difference to the Australian company noted, is in the
first 'tax' layer, but then a lot of the rest, is in the secondary taxes
being paid... :-(
There is no doubt, that if Meade allowed 'free trade', prices in the UK,
could fall, with possibly a US operation, opening their own small shop
over here, and relying on holding their main stock in the States, and an
increase in private imports, but the final savings on a 'warranted' scope
in the UK, while still very significant, would not be the amount that some
people think would apply, from comparing prices elsewhere.

Best Wishes

John D. Tanner wrote:
snip

I'd imagine that the list of costs you listed above is similar for an

American retailer (even adjusted for the USD:EUR). The simple fact is

that the numbers just don't add up.

BTW none of this explains Meade's strange price differences seen
across
Europe (~EUR200 between Germany and Austria for example).

Cheers,
John


I was answering a post that referred to a Meade trade price list and
listed the fixed costs (Yes I know VAT is not a fixed cost - my
mistake+ this time!). American retailer overheads have no bearing on
markup against what the goods come in at. As it happens, their
overheads are probably much lower, but then the US operates a different
social provision model, so it's not comparable.

It's just a small point (and I have had four Celestrons and a Meade).
Meade are not holding the British astronomical community to ransom,
because you don't have to buy their telescopes! However if you try to
buy anything else, including British-made, you will find the prices in
the same ball-park for similar goods. The prices are far higher for
better quality instruments and when someone (Orion US) produces an
affordable ED refactor, everyone is suspicious.

Roger

Hi folk

I visited the Meade day at Telescope House, UK and have heard a story that might
make this problem redundant. I had noticed that the new RCX scopes are much
more reasonably priced, with Meade having left the $1=£1 formula behind. My
understanding is that a slow growth of sales of high end scopes has resulted in
Meade changing their pricing policy.

A very welcome change!

Lawrence Harris


On Fri, 20 May 2005 11:50:21 +0100, "John D. Tanner"
wrote:

Dear all,

(please kill file/delete this if you aren't interested)

I've set up an on-line petition to try to get Meade to justify their EU
prices (which are vastly inflated compared to the US).

If you want to then please sign up at

http://gopetition.com/online/6474.html

If you don't want to then please ignore this message.

Regards,
John Tanner
http://physics.open.ac.uk/~jdtanner

Lawrence wrote:
Hi folk

I visited the Meade day at Telescope House, UK and have heard a story that might
make this problem redundant. I had noticed that the new RCX scopes are much
more reasonably priced, with Meade having left the $1=£1 formula behind. My
understanding is that a slow growth of sales of high end scopes has resulted in
Meade changing their pricing policy.

A very welcome change!


Great news! Cheers for the update Lawrence :-)

John
http://physics.open.ac.uk/~jdtanner

"Roger Hamlett" wrote in message
...

"Mark J Underwood" wrote in
message ...

"Mark J Underwood" wrote
in message ...

"Roger Steer" wrote in message
oups.com...
I don't suppose he left a list of his fixed costs:

VAT
Rent
Rates
Utilities
Payroll
Office equipment

did he?

Unless he was making at least 50% markup on what he was paying Meade,
he was probably losing money. This is the reality of retailing. That
you don't like hearing it does not make it any less true.

The low American price reflects many things, aggressive protection of
their own manufacturers by the state from the 'free trade-open market',
that they keep banging-on about, being but one of them.

Roger


The point is that particularly in this country the mark up on many goods
is way above what would be considered a normal profit margin in most
countries. This is particularly true where there are limited sources of
the goods in question.



I notice the Meade LX200 GPS is selling in Sydney Australia for AUS$ 4279
... that's £1769 The Warehouse Express price is £2479

Okay perhaps the AUS$ is a little weak .. but so is the £ ..something is
wrong here ??????
The problem that is often missed, is that taxes hit multiple times. Just
the import 'costs' to the Australian company, will be less, because they
pay 10% GST, against 17.5% VAT. However the extra taxes, then also gets
put on the prices the UK dealer is paying for everything else. Rent
mentioned in the above figure 'set', will typically be at least twice what
is paid by the US dealer (I know, I used to hire two office suites, one in
a suburb of San Francisco, and the other in part of Essex UK - I got over
twice the square footage for my money in the US). On the Payroll, the
'net' wages being paid, will probably be beaten by the US employee, but
gross, these wages will include national insurance, and the taxes, pushing
them up well beyond what the US company has to find. As another poster has
said, unless you shifting small goods in huge quantities, where you can
make good money on a small markup, the 'overheads' for a UK retail
company, make something like 50% markup necessary to actually make the
goods 'pay'. In fact for small goods, the markup will have to be a lot
above this (a typical 'florist' for example, will work on a 100% markup).
About half of the difference to the Australian company noted, is in the
first 'tax' layer, but then a lot of the rest, is in the secondary taxes
being paid... :-(
There is no doubt, that if Meade allowed 'free trade', prices in the UK,
could fall, with possibly a US operation, opening their own small shop
over here, and relying on holding their main stock in the States, and an
increase in private imports, but the final savings on a 'warranted' scope
in the UK, while still very significant, would not be the amount that some
people think would apply, from comparing prices elsewhere.

Best Wishes
I accept the points that you raise, but not totally to the degree in the
points that you make. For example, having spent a bit of time in Australia
I know that ground rents, particularly in Sydney ( source area of my example
price) are far from cheap and would certainly exceed those paid outside of
London. As regards everything else it would have to be subject to a detailed
costing analysis to break down and rebuild a picture of the situation.

While it is difficult to compare like for like, some of these price
differentials are, I feel, too marked and warrant further investigation. If
most of the telescope dealerships in the UK could source their supplies
direct from Meade/Celestron I would be interested to see how much the
competition would drive the profit margins down.

Come to that, (says he stiring the pot) I would love to know the exact
profit margin on the entire range of Meade Scopes sold in this country.

clear skies

p.s. I'm sticking with my 20 year old C 8 :-)

Roger Steer wrote:

John D. Tanner wrote:
snip

I'd imagine that the list of costs you listed above is similar for an

American retailer (even adjusted for the USD:EUR). The simple fact is

that the numbers just don't add up.

BTW none of this explains Meade's strange price differences seen
across
Europe (~EUR200 between Germany and Austria for example).

Cheers,
John


I was answering a post that referred to a Meade trade price list and
listed the fixed costs (Yes I know VAT is not a fixed cost - my
mistake+ this time!). American retailer overheads have no bearing on
markup against what the goods come in at. As it happens, their
overheads are probably much lower, but then the US operates a different
social provision model, so it's not comparable.

It's just a small point (and I have had four Celestrons and a Meade).
Meade are not holding the British astronomical community to ransom,
because you don't have to buy their telescopes! However if you try to
buy anything else, including British-made, you will find the prices in
the same ball-park for similar goods. The prices are far higher for
better quality instruments and when someone (Orion US) produces an
affordable ED refactor, everyone is suspicious.

Isn't this simply a case of Meade, being the dominant manufacturer,
setting the benchmark for similar products from different manufacturers.
There may or may not be a cartel in operation, but until someone breaks
ranks it's going to remain that way.

--

Peter