The trouble with 'quadrature'

On Friday, December 19, 2014 7:45:36 PM UTC-8, Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa wrote:
"palsing" wrote in message
...

On Friday, December 19, 2014 5:20:15 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

If you find yourself talking to a guy with an Italian culinary handle
then perhaps I have thought more of you than I should.

This from a guy whose handle is Oriel36? Is there really much of a
difference?

He prefers French cuisine to Italian.
http://orielbrasserie.co.uk/
PETIT DÉJEUNER

Served all day

OEUFS BÉNÉDICTE
Poached free range eggs on ham with toasted muffin and Hollandaise sauce.
£7.75

OEUFS ROYALE
Poached eggs on oak smoked Scottish salmon with toasted muffin and
Hollandaise sauce.
£7.50

OEUFS FLORENTINE
Poached eggs on wilted spinach with toasted muffin and Hollandaise sauce.

I thought Oriel36 was three dozen oeufs of a small icterid blackbird common
in eastern North America as a migratory breeding bird. No, wait, that's a
Baltimore oriole... which I'm obviously confusing with the Baltimore
Orioles, an American professional baseball team.

-- Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa
ti

John, sometimes you are a laugh riot...

On Friday, December 19, 2014 5:20:15 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

The fact is that the angular distance between Venus and the Sun at its widest point will always depend on a moving Earth hence elongation is the central theme of this thread in tandem with phases.Bill Owen's simple graphics were closest to the core arguments which distinguishes the observations of the original heliocentric astronomers and their conclusions which bundles inner and outer planetary motions from this new approach which designates orbital positions of the inner planets with the position of the Earth.

I don't know what you are trying to say, but all I know for sure is, there is no new approach, these things have been understood for a long, long time now... and you, my friend, are nuttier than a fruitcake... no offense intended...

The material here is meant for people who can discern the 3 components involved in determining where the position of Venus resides when it is furthest from the Sun as viewed from a moving Earth and at half light/half dark phase.

The greatest modification when organizing the three components into an effective format is restricting the radius between the Sun and inner planet to the orbital circumference of that planet rather than extending it on to the outer planet,in the following case the Earth -

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Personal attacks mean nothing,this is a straightforward comparison between the perspectives of the original heliocentric astronomers and 21st century observations using phases dictating the orbital circumference of an inner planet as viewed from Earth -

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

The greatest elongation is a 100% certainty at half light/half dark phase using the central Sun as a fixed reference for the graceful sweep of Venus and the widening and decreasing angles as seen from the Sun/Earth line.

Let these know-nothings croak in their intellectual swamps, the facts speak for themselves in an enjoyable and visual way for genuine astronomers.

On Saturday, 20 December 2014 07:02:28 UTC, oriel36 wrote:

The greatest elongation is a 100% certainty at half light/half dark phase using the central Sun as a fixed reference for the graceful sweep of Venus and the widening and decreasing angles as seen from the Sun/Earth line.

Let these know-nothings croak in their intellectual swamps, the facts speak for themselves in an enjoyable and visual way for genuine astronomers.

In reality the theoretical dichotomy does NOT take place exactly at the instant of the greatest elongation from the Sun. With Venus the difference can exceed 2 days.

"One common misconception is that dichotomy exactly corresponds with the greatest elongation East (or West) of the Sun. This is not true, and the reasons for this disparity are the different eccentricities of the two independent orbits of Venus and Earth" http://www.southastrodel.com/PageVenus003.htm

This has been observed many times, including I have to say myself in 2001 or 2002.

So yet again actual scientific observations disagree with the diatribes served up by Gerald to this unwilling audience.

On Saturday, December 20, 2014 12:34:51 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, 20 December 2014 07:02:28 UTC, oriel36 wrote:

The greatest elongation is a 100% certainty at half light/half dark phase using the central Sun as a fixed reference for the graceful sweep of Venus and the widening and decreasing angles as seen from the Sun/Earth line.

Let these know-nothings croak in their intellectual swamps, the facts speak for themselves in an enjoyable and visual way for genuine astronomers.

In reality the theoretical dichotomy does NOT take place exactly at the instant of the greatest elongation from the Sun. With Venus the difference can exceed 2 days.

"One common misconception is that dichotomy exactly corresponds with the greatest elongation East (or West) of the Sun. This is not true, and the reasons for this disparity are the different eccentricities of the two independent orbits of Venus and Earth" http://www.southastrodel.com/PageVenus003.htm

This has been observed many times, including I have to say myself in 2001 or 2002.

So yet again actual scientific observations disagree with the diatribes served up by Gerald to this unwilling audience.


I have to read through that contrived rubbish while the explanation for the coincidence of half light/half dark phase of Venus in tandem with its orbital position at its widest point seen from a moving Earth is there before everyone with basic reasoning as their guide and a platform that differs from the concepts of original heliocentric astronomers who bundled inner and outer planetary retrogrades together due to their methods and reference system.

The main points

The major difference in terms of elongation is that the planetary radius from inner planet to Sun is confined within the orbit of that planet rather than extended to Earth. Although the following graphic does show Venus at its greatest elongation,the geometry of a line extended to the Earth must be removed to make sense of observations of Venus seen from Earth in terms of its size increase and phase characteristic

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

There are two anchors for determining the orbital position of Venus using its phases using the moving Earth . The first anchor is the Sun/Earth line with a physical trait of the circle of illumination which is always tangential to that line. The second anchor are relative speeds where the faster motion of Venus generates a variation in angle between that planet and the central Sun to a maximum of 90 Degrees off the Sun/Earth line.

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/S...age%20flat.jpg

It is at that moment when the circle of illumination of Venus is at right angles to the circle of illumination of the Earth that Venus is at its widest point from the Sun regardless of where each planet is in its orbit for all that concerns the observer is how to determine when Venus or Mercury goes retrograde when its starts to swing in front of the Sun after it reaches its widest point seen from Earth -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

Five hundred years ago this year, Copernicus introduced the Commentariolis which outlined observations which accounted for the orbital position and motion of the Earth and specifically retrogrades. The major difference now rests on a later development introduced by the telescope first and now 21st century sequential imaging which dictates conclusions by more direct means than the original heliocentric astronomers.

I don't care if these know-nothings try to muddy the waters, the distinction between inner and outer planetary perspectives on their motion seen from a moving Earth is clear and significant by any standards.

On Saturday, 20 December 2014 07:02:28 UTC, oriel36 wrote:


The greatest elongation is a 100% certainty at half light/half dark phase using the central Sun as a fixed reference for the graceful sweep of Venus and the widening and decreasing angles as seen from the Sun/Earth line.

Let these know-nothings croak in their intellectual swamps, the facts speak for themselves in an enjoyable and visual way for genuine astronomers.


In reality the theoretical dichotomy does NOT take place exactly at the instant of the greatest elongation from the Sun. With Venus the difference can exceed 2 days.

"One common misconception is that dichotomy exactly corresponds with the greatest elongation East (or West) of the Sun. This is not true, and the reasons for this disparity are the different eccentricities of the two independent orbits of Venus and Earth" http://www.southastrodel.com/PageVenus003.htm

This has been observed many times, including I have to say myself in 2001 or 2002.

So yet again actual scientific observations disagree with the diatribes served up by Gerald to this unwilling audience.

Predictably he then posts a mass of convoluted text that nobody will bother to read. The facts are unchanged - Gerald has got it wrong again and is incapable of admitting it. There are no "waters to muddy" since Gerald has no observational evidence to support his claim of 100% certainty.

And now it goodbye from me for another few months!

On Thursday, December 18, 2014 10:01:03 AM UTC-8, Bill Owen wrote:

"Quadrature" is when the planet's elongation is 90 degrees -- that is,
the Sun-Earth-planet angle is 90 degrees.

S------------E
|
P

"Dichotomy" is when the planet is half illuminated as seen from the
earth -- that is, when the Sun-planet-Earth angle is 90 degrees.

S
|
P------------E



This is impossible, the Sun/Earth line is defined by the Earth's circle of illumination and that will always be at a right angle to the circle of illumination of Venus when both planets are at 90 Degrees from each other with the central Sun as a fixed reference along with the fact that the faster moving Venus relative to the slower moving Earth creates the elongation angle..

The true separation between Venus and the central Sun using the background stars as a gauge is determined by the Earth's circle of illumination which is tangential to the Sun/Earth line. The common error is to gauge the separation between inner planet and Sun via the local horizon -

http://astro.unl.edu/naap/ssm/elongation.html

Either planet's orbital position relative to each other,irrespective of their intrinsic orbital speeds, will present a half light/half dark phase seen from an outer planet when their orbital positions are at 90 degrees from each other and from their respective orbital circumference.

Your Earth/Venus/Sun graphic at the point of half illumination is at odds with the relationship with the circle of illumination of both planets to each other.I already know the problem is accounting for the Earth's orbital input but that requires huge modifications.

On 12/19/14 20:12, palsing wrote:
On Friday, December 19, 2014 7:45:36 PM UTC-8, Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa wrote:
"palsing" wrote in message
...

On Friday, December 19, 2014 5:20:15 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

If you find yourself talking to a guy with an Italian culinary handle
then perhaps I have thought more of you than I should.

This from a guy whose handle is Oriel36? Is there really much of a
difference?

He prefers French cuisine to Italian.
http://orielbrasserie.co.uk/
PETIT DÉJEUNER

Served all day

OEUFS BÉNÉDICTE
Poached free range eggs on ham with toasted muffin and Hollandaise sauce.
£7.75

OEUFS ROYALE
Poached eggs on oak smoked Scottish salmon with toasted muffin and
Hollandaise sauce.
£7.50

OEUFS FLORENTINE
Poached eggs on wilted spinach with toasted muffin and Hollandaise sauce.

I thought Oriel36 was three dozen oeufs of a small icterid blackbird common
in eastern North America as a migratory breeding bird. No, wait, that's a
Baltimore oriole... which I'm obviously confusing with the Baltimore
Orioles, an American professional baseball team.

-- Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa
ti

John, sometimes you are a laugh riot...


Agreed! say I, picking myself up from the floor....

I needed a good dose of humor, given that the camera I'm using is having
all sorts of glitches tonight. Time for bed sigh.

-- Bill

On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 12:01:03 AM UTC-8, Bill Owen wrote:

"Quadrature" is when the planet's elongation is 90 degrees -- that is,
the Sun-Earth-planet angle is 90 degrees.

S------------E
|
P

"Dichotomy" is when the planet is half illuminated as seen from the
earth -- that is, when the Sun-planet-Earth angle is 90 degrees.

S
|
P------------E


I needed a good dose of humor, given that the camera I'm using is having
all sorts of glitches tonight. Time for bed sigh.

-- Bill

This is quite amazing in the complete and utter distaste for proper reasoning and without the slightest sense of wrongdoing.

The phases of Venus are actually its circle of illumination which defines where a planet is in its orbit around the Sun. At transit, the circle of illumination of Venus runs parallel with the Earth's as the faster moving inner planet passes the Sun/Earth line -

http://gbphotodidactical.ca/images/i...-JAXA-NASA.jpg

Your graphic of 'dichotomy', where it assumes that we see Venus at half lit phase doesn't take into account the location of the Earth's circle of illumination and then you all get into trouble or disappear.

As you are paid as an astronomer, make sure you inform your colleagues,with my permission, that the angle created by Venus and the Sun when seen from Earth only extends to that planet's orbital circumference. The Sun/Earth line is always tangential to our planet's circle of illumination so all observations of Venus are made from that perspective.

It is 500 years since anyone revisited retrograde resolution and your response is to type 'sigh' and go for a nap. How many more like you even though you are being given free reign to act like men and astronomers.It shows only entitlement that comes from a type of welfare you receive from being a generational follower of theorists rather than the huge satisfaction which comes from talent as an astronomer.

Anyone can work these things out and pet themselves in a better position of understanding than the original heliocentric astronomers while taking nothing away from them.

On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 8:35:44 AM UTC-7, oriel36 wrote:

This is quite amazing in the complete and utter distaste for proper reasoning
and without the slightest sense of wrongdoing.

Your reasoning is anything but "proper". But then, you don't seem to know any
better, so it's not surprising you don't sense wrongdoing on your own part.

John Savard